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 LunarSol wrote:
Prime Hunters is such a backhanded way to say joke faction.

The penalty is basically comp and hamfisted but probably somewhat effective. The boost is... not gonna work. First you have to assume these factions only struggle against these specific units, then you have to assume that they're able to take down these units effectively, which, if they could.... probably wouldn't leave them underpowered.

What do you mean when you say "work" here?


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 nels1031 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Prime Hunters is such a backhanded way to say joke faction.

That I can agree with. Just call them what they are : Underdogs or some variant of that.

Yeah I would prefer that as well.

At least bloodbowl is honest with the tier system.

Of course buying a blood bowl team is not the same as a whole warhammer army.

 Overread wrote:
It's not a totally daft idea to try and introduce more risk to taking powerful models in your army, but I don't know it feels like trying to patch over the problem of the model being powerful as opposed to tackling it

Well yeah, it is a patch to help things until the next GHB where the points ARE updated. The rule they are adding these adjustments to only exists in the context of the current season. I am guessing they got feedback from people not liking that they needed to change their lists, that the point values in their printed materials became invalid, etc. Such complaints have certainly cropped up on Dakka numerous times in the past.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's not a totally daft idea to try and introduce more risk to taking powerful models in your army, but I don't know it feels like trying to patch over the problem of the model being powerful as opposed to tackling it

Well yeah, it is a patch to help things until the next GHB where the points ARE updated. The rule they are adding these adjustments to only exists in the context of the current season. I am guessing they got feedback from people not liking that they needed to change their lists, that the point values in their printed materials became invalid, etc. Such complaints have certainly cropped up on Dakka numerous times in the past.

From the article on WHC:

Matt Rose from the Warhammer Studio has some insight into this unique balance update.

“It’s an exciting time for Warhammer Age of Sigmar rules development, with a bunch of battletomes on the way, bringing new rules and points values specifically designed for the latest edition of the game. Balancing the game is a task that requires constant attention. For this second Battlescroll, the team are trying something different, providing “a standalone mechanism for us to address balance without invalidating the content of the battletomes you have collected, clashing with points contained in upcoming books, or restricting the use of an army that you may have spent a lot of time collecting and painting”.

Are you agreeing with me or...?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Are you agreeing with me or...?

Giving a direct quote from one of the AoS designers that supports your statement.

This just seems clunky as hell.

I commend GW for trying something new.

How it pans out... I guess we'll see in the next tournaments.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
This just seems clunky as hell.

And all for win more system. Seeing it's irrelevant do you win by 1 vp or 10 vp doesn't matter.

Problem is this doesn't matter for the problem cases but does for non problem use.

15 blood stalkers double firing is oppressive. But that doesn't actually care about this. You either win anyway or you just lose by bigger margin(which is 100% irrelevant). 2x5 without shooting twice? Is that really such a problem it needs up to 4 vp handicap?

3 longstrike raptors without double shoot isn't problem. 6 with double shoot doesn't care about this change. You either win as before or you lose by bigger vp margin...which again is irrelevant.

I appreciate their effort to avoid everyone reworking their army list, but this seems extremely inelegant as a solution. Very odd choice.

What's the problem for which this is supposed to be the solution anyway?

 Geifer wrote:
What's the problem for which this is supposed to be the solution anyway?

Stuff like 6 raptors with shoot twice, 15 snake bows shooting twice, dragons, mega gargants etc dominating the game. They are too good for the points.

Problem is rather than fix the problem they went for this which hurts more of non problem using while not doing anything of note vs problems. Local 1st prince went "yey" as this "nerf" to his army doesn't actually matter. If he loses those units he's losing game anyway...

tneva82 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What's the problem for which this is supposed to be the solution anyway?

Stuff like 6 raptors with shoot twice, 15 snake bows shooting twice, dragons, mega gargants etc dominating the game. They are too good for the points.

Problem is rather than fix the problem they went for this which hurts more of non problem using while not doing anything of note vs problems. Local 1st prince went "yey" as this "nerf" to his army doesn't actually matter. If he loses those units he's losing game anyway...

It also does nothing to fix the INTERNAL problems that help push these skew/single unit lists.

Morathi+15 BloodStalkers is and has been the ONLY viable competitive build in Daughters of Khaine. This is partially because that interaction is way too good and partially because every other unit in the Daughters of Khaine roster is either just an objective camper/chaff (khinerai, shadow stalkers, witch aelves) or incredibly subpar compared to other army's melee options (Sisters of Slaughter, Blood Sisters, Avatar's of Khaine, Cauldrons, Ironscale, etc).

So either this change isn't successful in significantly impacting Morathi+15 BloodStalker, at which point it's pointless OR it IS successful at significantly impacting Morathi+15 BloodStalkers and DoK drops off the map. Because there's nothing in the army to pivot to if the 'crutch build' takes a hit, nerfs to those units don't result in other units seeing MORE play, they result in the faction seeing LESS play.

Unless another viable build pops up because the other factions' viable builds have changed.

Rihgu wrote:
Unless another viable build pops up because the other factions' viable builds have changed.

Except this doesn't always happen, because sometimes the faction just gets dumped by the "top table" players that some of those people copypaste lists from.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
This sort of doesn't feel like an actual balance update lol.

More a list of 'These units are really strong' and another list of 'these factions or sub-factions suck ass right about now.'

Which is my problem with it. "We know what's wrong, here's a mini game instead of attempts to modernize our approach and fix it"

 Eldarain wrote:
Which is my problem with it. "We know what's wrong, here's a mini game instead of attempts to modernize our approach and fix it"

Ok, I'll bite. How do you propose to ""fix points"" of unit relying on outside ability? Every time unit double shots, controlling player has to pay points for that? Maybe the unit giving the ability should get massive points hike, making it trash and completely nonexistent for anyone who doesn't plop 15 archer unit on the table? Opponent gets special ability to punch in the face anyone trying to use that combo?

I really like how dakka always say FiX pOiNtS when how much unit is worth depends massively on context (lascannons are certainly not worth 25 pts when opponent only brings gaunts, etc) and the only way to 'fix' the points would be to have an AI generate them on the fly based on both lists and the table picture...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Unless another viable build pops up because the other factions' viable builds have changed.

Except this doesn't always happen, because sometimes the faction just gets dumped by the "top table" players that some of those people copypaste lists from.

Right. These changes are too far-reaching and honestly subtle to see the real effect of until the tournaments start actually rolling with them. Maybe somebody who is better at analysis/with wider access to AoS stats can make the call right now, but I think it's too early to tell whether these changes succeed at their goal, make no change, or swing things too hard, or some combination of the above across factions.

Sons of Behemat, First Prince, and DoK I can see being dumped. GSG going 5-0 more often looks like it'll happen. Stormcast lists will probably stop taking 4 fulminators and 6 longstrikes, and just go 1 of each. Or maybe they won't, actually, because nothing can kill them so it doesn't matter! Soon we'll see.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Prime Hunters is such a backhanded way to say joke faction.

The penalty is basically comp and hamfisted but probably somewhat effective. The boost is... not gonna work. First you have to assume these factions only struggle against these specific units, then you have to assume that they're able to take down these units effectively, which, if they could.... probably wouldn't leave them underpowered.

What do you mean when you say "work" here?

It is not going to meaningfully improve the competitive chances of underperforming factions.

The situation isn't binary; often these units DO die and the controlling player wins anyways because they have already done their job. The games where they live to the end tend to be the runaways that weren't close to begin with. Yes, this change obviously does not affect such cases when it ideally would it is clear GW feels it is more appropriate to wait for a proper book release to enact more dramatic changes. I think people are forgetting that this is not a replacement for the balance methods they were already doing, it is in ADDITION to the methods they are already doing. The very nature of the update is admitting it's an imperfect fix designed not to ruffle feathers but to take the edge off the problem until a proper fix can be enacted. It isn't going to turn 5-0 armies into 2-3 ones, but it could very much turn them into 4-1s or occasionally 3-2s and that widens the competitive scene significantly. This is particularly true in a tournament scene where the armies showing up tend to be diverse but the units being run by those armies are not.

Now this still may not be effective, that is where we will have to wait and see. GW are also still fully capable of screwing up the more significant changes, and a good chunk (if not the majority) of these problems should have been recognized and dealt with before the books ever saw print. But those are matters outside the context of this specific change.

 LunarSol wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Prime Hunters is such a backhanded way to say joke faction.

The penalty is basically comp and hamfisted but probably somewhat effective. The boost is... not gonna work. First you have to assume these factions only struggle against these specific units, then you have to assume that they're able to take down these units effectively, which, if they could.... probably wouldn't leave them underpowered.

What do you mean when you say "work" here?

It is not going to meaningfully improve the competitive chances of underperforming factions.

I suppose I don't disagree if the context is limited that way. But the extra boost to underdog factions is a side-benefit to the main feature which affects everyone.

It's going to be effective turning underdog win into bigger. Win more.

Of course win　by 1 is just as good as win by 20.

Crossboos article

Poor Valentian, on top of everything else, he's now getting perpetually kill steale'd.

Can anyone tell what the total contents are?

For two hordey factions the picture looks pretty sparse to me, can't see it doing too well if it's priced as high as like recent box sets.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Can anyone tell what the total contents are?

For two hordey factions the picture looks pretty sparse to me, can't see it doing too well if it's priced as high as like recent box sets.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/01/28/lvo-2022-new-nighthaunt-and-daughters-of-khaine-fight-for-souls-in-arena-of-shades/

Scriptor Mortis x 1
Craven Throne Guard x 4
Spectral Standard Bearer x 1
Bladegheist Revenants x 10
Spirit Torment x 1
Chainghasts x 2
Myrmourn Banshees x 4
High Gladiatrix x 1
Doomfire Warlocks x 5
Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaughter x 10
Khinerai Lifetakers/Heartrenders x 5

44 miniatures total

never mind, Dave's got it.

Oh! Well, never mind what I just said!

If it's the same price as fury of the deep, it's actually going to be a very good box. But next weekend pre-order then if they're doing the previews now?

I wish the DoK were getting a new infantry/cavalry unit along with the new hero. This is one set I'll likely have to hunt on ebay for the character on her own or just wait till she goes on sale. I just don't need more khinerai nor doombolt riders. Sisters of Slaughter I could do with (I've enough witches), but with khinerai and riders I don't need, any price saving is moot on this set.



Still very glad to see DoK hanging in there and getting new kits and it is nice to have a range of heroes now that are outside of the Cauldron set.

Ignore LoS and cover, but on a 12" range to keep it from being oppressive, good stuff. My concern is that profile is rather weak for a unit that doesn't look particularly swarmy, which makes me wonder if they have some MW kn 6s to hit ability that AoS does NOT need more of.

That fluff though, love it.