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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Horus Heresy of course has an advantage over 40K, as both the main forces use the same kits. So, where say a Bandeblade only appeal to Guard players, and to a lesser extent Imperial players, a Glaive, Falcion, Mastodon etc is going to appeal an easy majority of people playing Horus Heresy, because all of that easy majority can field them. So the fair investment for GW is much more likely pay off.

There are many basic kits that should be coming before they release super heavies but as you said, since they appeal to most of the HH playerbase I would expect them to be coming at some point.
Typhon/Cerberus should be pretty easy since we already have the Spartan chassis and Fellblade/Glaive/Falchion are only Baneblade size I think? so should also be possible especially since they can be made as a single kit with different builds (maybe with the Falchion as a seperate kit)
Mastodon/Thunderhawk/Stormbird would be a different class so I wouldn't expect them for now until HH gets bigger.

Another thing is 40k Space Marines also don't have any plastic Lords of War so I could also see them appeal to many 40k players who want a big center piece model

Yeah I have been wondering how many Leviathans they will be selling to (primarily or exclusively) 40K players either to use as Leviathans with the CP tax or as proxy Redemptors.

With them going plastic wouldn't surprise errata to appear removing cp tax

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

That's because HH doesn't work like 40K. There isn't really a master list that rules them all for each faction. Having a mix of thematic units is the intention and encouraged. My list changes nearly every game, depending on how I feel the battle should go off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

I think that is part of the problem. GW doesn't want to direct people to FW, they want people to stay in the GW plastic eco-system. Sadly most of the cool toys are in resin but I reckons eventually most will be in plastic except the really big stuff like Thunderhawks, Sokar pattern stormbird, glaves, flachion, fellblades etc.

With the spartian in plastic I hope to see the Typhon and Cerberus in plastic eventually. I would LOVE to have a plastic THawk but I don't see it any time soon.

Big kits depend on market share, and how often they see the field I suppose.

Horus Heresy of course has an advantage over 40K, as both the main forces use the same kits. So, where say a Bandeblade only appeal to Guard players, and to a lesser extent Imperial players, a Glaive, Falcion, Mastodon etc is going to appeal an easy majority of people playing Horus Heresy, because all of that easy majority can field them. So the fair investment for GW is much more likely pay off.

The game itself has a pretty loyal and big spending backbone of players, whose money has allowed Horus Heresy to get to this stage in the first place. And the bigger their armies, being predominantly narrative driven, the bigger the games, and so the bigger the resulting spend. And I’m not joking when I say the chums that have been doing Heresy since it released have spent thousands on it, and are now spending more on plastic.

I dare say I’m far from alone at wanting Big Kits, and being perfectly happy to buy them, but being strongly adverse to working in resin (any resin. Don’t like the feel, the extra prep, the heft, the need for super or epoxy glue). Put them in plastic? And I’ll buy them. Possibly one of each for variety.

This. We've already got folks here in my area who are painting custom colors so that they can just buy one army and play any of the legions they want on demand.

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

From my particular point of view of the 30k ecosystem, I can offer my idea of the reasoning behind this. I'm a new player, have not played a game yet, but I am a member of my local 30k community's groups (fb, etc) and I also see almost no list-building discussion or army list posts or any of the stuff one typically associates with 40k (and to a lesser extent, AOS). However, I see tons of posts about theming armies, and several events that are based around certain campaigns or battles. I've been slowly reading the 30k rulebook and just last night got to the "Battle in the Age of Darkness" section, and they go into great pains to discuss how Narrative and Campaign/Scenario play are the primary methods to play the Heresy. Matched play is given a brief mention at the end of the section as an alternative. Based on the evidence at hand, from the direction of the rulebook to the local community/events, it just seems that "lists" and "listbuilding" are secondary at best, and probably simply tertiary to the background and hobby aspects of any particular force. Significantly greater attention seems to be paid to an army's Reason/Theme and Hobby/Painting and there's almost no discussion of listbuilding. Perhaps I am merely in an isolated pocket, but I see this reflected across most other groups/forums etc that I lurk in. Add to this the fact that the standard response to "what legion/models should I play/buy" is almost always "whatever one looks cool to you, and whatever models you like" reinforces this. With this comfortably cementing into my mind, I've been realizing that as I assemble and paint my toys, I'm paying much less attention to finagling the best combos and optimum wargear choices, which is mentally exhausing and incredibly boring, to just simply picking what looks the coolest or makes the most sense to fit the background of my army, which really invigorates me and gets me really excited to get my army to a playable state.

tl;dr listbuilding is refreshingly not the point of 30k

 judgedoug wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

From my particular point of view of the 30k ecosystem, I can offer my idea of the reasoning behind this. I'm a new player, have not played a game yet, but I am a member of my local 30k community's groups (fb, etc) and I also see almost no list-building discussion or army list posts or any of the stuff one typically associates with 40k (and to a lesser extent, AOS). However, I see tons of posts about theming armies, and several events that are based around certain campaigns or battles. I've been slowly reading the 30k rulebook and just last night got to the "Battle in the Age of Darkness" section, and they go into great pains to discuss how Narrative and Campaign/Scenario play are the primary methods to play the Heresy. Matched play is given a brief mention at the end of the section as an alternative. Based on the evidence at hand, from the direction of the rulebook to the local community/events, it just seems that "lists" and "listbuilding" are secondary at best, and probably simply tertiary to the background and hobby aspects of any particular force. Significantly greater attention seems to be paid to an army's Reason/Theme and Hobby/Painting and there's almost no discussion of listbuilding. Perhaps I am merely in an isolated pocket, but I see this reflected across most other groups/forums etc that I lurk in. Add to this the fact that the standard response to "what legion/models should I play/buy" is almost always "whatever one looks cool to you, and whatever models you like" reinforces this. With this comfortably cementing into my mind, I've been realizing that as I assemble and paint my toys, I'm paying much less attention to finagling the best combos and optimum wargear choices, which is mentally exhausing and incredibly boring, to just simply picking what looks the coolest or makes the most sense to fit the background of my army, which really invigorates me and gets me really excited to get my army to a playable state.

tl;dr listbuilding is refreshingly not the point of 30k

This. My whole point of playing and collecting 30K is not to win matched play, but to tell a story with my Legion. I have long been building a Loyalist Emperor's Children force, and the HH release simply put my goals in order. Originally my plan (8 years ago or so) was just to collect a 3000 point force. Now, with the plastic support coming from GW and four other friends jumping into HH (WB, WE, WS and DA respectively), I can look forward to actually playing...so I now want to try a lot of different units and ideas. And so I now have added a Glaive to partner with a Fellblade. I wonder if the Mastodon will make it into plastic...

Also, I prefer this rule set than 9th ed (but I prefer the current AoS...odd).

 Sacredroach wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

From my particular point of view of the 30k ecosystem, I can offer my idea of the reasoning behind this. I'm a new player, have not played a game yet, but I am a member of my local 30k community's groups (fb, etc) and I also see almost no list-building discussion or army list posts or any of the stuff one typically associates with 40k (and to a lesser extent, AOS). However, I see tons of posts about theming armies, and several events that are based around certain campaigns or battles. I've been slowly reading the 30k rulebook and just last night got to the "Battle in the Age of Darkness" section, and they go into great pains to discuss how Narrative and Campaign/Scenario play are the primary methods to play the Heresy. Matched play is given a brief mention at the end of the section as an alternative. Based on the evidence at hand, from the direction of the rulebook to the local community/events, it just seems that "lists" and "listbuilding" are secondary at best, and probably simply tertiary to the background and hobby aspects of any particular force. Significantly greater attention seems to be paid to an army's Reason/Theme and Hobby/Painting and there's almost no discussion of listbuilding. Perhaps I am merely in an isolated pocket, but I see this reflected across most other groups/forums etc that I lurk in. Add to this the fact that the standard response to "what legion/models should I play/buy" is almost always "whatever one looks cool to you, and whatever models you like" reinforces this. With this comfortably cementing into my mind, I've been realizing that as I assemble and paint my toys, I'm paying much less attention to finagling the best combos and optimum wargear choices, which is mentally exhausing and incredibly boring, to just simply picking what looks the coolest or makes the most sense to fit the background of my army, which really invigorates me and gets me really excited to get my army to a playable state.

tl;dr listbuilding is refreshingly not the point of 30k

This. My whole point of playing and collecting 30K is not to win matched play, but to tell a story with my Legion. I have long been building a Loyalist Emperor's Children force, and the HH release simply put my goals in order. Originally my plan (8 years ago or so) was just to collect a 3000 point force. Now, with the plastic support coming from GW and four other friends jumping into HH (WB, WE, WS and DA respectively), I can look forward to actually playing...so I now want to try a lot of different units and ideas. And so I now have added a Glaive to partner with a Fellblade. I wonder if the Mastodon will make it into plastic...

Also, I prefer this rule set than 9th ed (but I prefer the current AoS...odd).

The Mastadon is one I can't even guess at. It would be one heck of an amazing kjt in plastic. I hope it comes, I'll buy three.

But I am now almost certain that a plastic Fellblade/Glaive kit will appear at some point in the near future. It will work well as a dual kit and I'm sure it will sell well.

 Togusa wrote:


The Mastadon is one I can't even guess at. It would be one heck of an amazing kjt in plastic. I hope it comes, I'll buy three.

But I am now almost certain that a plastic Fellblade/Glaive kit will appear at some point in the near future. It will work well as a dual kit and I'm sure it will sell well.

If they do make a dual or triple Fellblade/Glaive(/Falchion) I will probably buy 2-3 of them. And for a plastic Mastadon, yeah, 3 sounds about right. The crazy thing it that I can see these being $175-$200, and I'm OK with that.

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

From my experience, it's down to the nature of the game.
HH unlike 40k has almost no competitive ecosystem and while there have been some serious wombo-combos in the past (Deathstars, Magnus, Thousand Sons in general), the idea of the game is to play the story of the setting. You see a lot of HH events but they aren't tournaments they are narrative events, indeed when Warhammer World hosted a HH tournament recently instead of a narrative weekender (which is the norm) there was significant backlash from the wider HH online community.
The focus on narrative has led to some rather undesirable behaviour from certain people within the online community who very loudly and often declared that an influx of players would "ruin" HH and turn it into the mess we see with competitive 40k. Of course, they've been proven wrong already but they keep on shouting about it.

Even all the online reviews, don't give any idea of how to really build an army, just what special features the particular legion has. GMG did a decent review of each legion, but honestly seeing a few army list examples and why they work would have been a lot better then just reading from the Libre.

I would wager that is down to the fact there is no magic button to make a "good" HH army. The Legion list is exceptionally forgiving with army creation and the Rites of War mean that generally speaking everything has a place. Obviously, you can't just take Legion Scouts and expect to win but themed lists aren't punished nearly as much as they are in 40k.

The specific emphasis on NOT MATCHED PLAY is really what's drawing me to 30k and away from 40k(well 40k was doing a pretty good job pushing me away on its own).

yeah gonna agree that HH is kinda nice in that the CULTURE of the game is very differant.

 Gert wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

From my experience, it's down to the nature of the game.
HH unlike 40k has almost no competitive ecosystem and while there have been some serious wombo-combos in the past (Deathstars, Magnus, Thousand Sons in general), the idea of the game is to play the story of the setting. You see a lot of HH events but they aren't tournaments they are narrative events, indeed when Warhammer World hosted a HH tournament recently instead of a narrative weekender (which is the norm) there was significant backlash from the wider HH online community.
The focus on narrative has led to some rather undesirable behaviour from certain people within the online community who very loudly and often declared that an influx of players would "ruin" HH and turn it into the mess we see with competitive 40k. Of course, they've been proven wrong already but they keep on shouting about it.

I'm not going to lie, the more they shout about it the more I want competitive 30K to happen out of spite.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Gert wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

From my experience, it's down to the nature of the game.
HH unlike 40k has almost no competitive ecosystem and while there have been some serious wombo-combos in the past (Deathstars, Magnus, Thousand Sons in general), the idea of the game is to play the story of the setting. You see a lot of HH events but they aren't tournaments they are narrative events, indeed when Warhammer World hosted a HH tournament recently instead of a narrative weekender (which is the norm) there was significant backlash from the wider HH online community.
The focus on narrative has led to some rather undesirable behaviour from certain people within the online community who very loudly and often declared that an influx of players would "ruin" HH and turn it into the mess we see with competitive 40k. Of course, they've been proven wrong already but they keep on shouting about it.

I'm not going to lie, the more they shout about it the more I want competitive 30K to happen out of spite.

I don't I want to see those elitist gate keepers proven wrong.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Gert wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

From my experience, it's down to the nature of the game.
HH unlike 40k has almost no competitive ecosystem and while there have been some serious wombo-combos in the past (Deathstars, Magnus, Thousand Sons in general), the idea of the game is to play the story of the setting. You see a lot of HH events but they aren't tournaments they are narrative events, indeed when Warhammer World hosted a HH tournament recently instead of a narrative weekender (which is the norm) there was significant backlash from the wider HH online community.
The focus on narrative has led to some rather undesirable behaviour from certain people within the online community who very loudly and often declared that an influx of players would "ruin" HH and turn it into the mess we see with competitive 40k. Of course, they've been proven wrong already but they keep on shouting about it.

I'm not going to lie, the more they shout about it the more I want competitive 30K to happen out of spite.

GW kicked off HH2 with a tournament. I don't think abandoning 'competitive' was ever in the cards.

Making an incredibly good HH army isn't exactly difficult tbf, quite a lot of things are just very cost effective compared ot others, but it would just be incredibly cheesy and you'd get a ton of stick for suggesting it, rather than the appreciation min/maxed 40k armies might get online.
The community just doesn't really want to see maxed out, super effective armies it seems and hopefully it stays that way. They are far more interested in seeing a really fun, cool looking army full of conversions and cool aesthetics and interesting setting/narrative

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't I want to see those elitist gate keepers proven wrong.

So we both want competitive 30K then.

 Laughing Man wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I don't I want to see those elitist gate keepers proven wrong.

So we both want competitive 30K then.

No, I want to see them proven wrong in the context that "people who prefer to buy plastic models over insanely expensive forge world resin are just as capable of enjoying a narrative focused game as the 'old guard' are"

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Gert wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Trying to figure out as it seems like HH was a good release for GW, yet you don't really see any lists anywhere? Is it due to the large points game size (3000 pts), the fact that most units are FW and not available or something else?

From my experience, it's down to the nature of the game.
HH unlike 40k has almost no competitive ecosystem and while there have been some serious wombo-combos in the past (Deathstars, Magnus, Thousand Sons in general), the idea of the game is to play the story of the setting. You see a lot of HH events but they aren't tournaments they are narrative events, indeed when Warhammer World hosted a HH tournament recently instead of a narrative weekender (which is the norm) there was significant backlash from the wider HH online community.
The focus on narrative has led to some rather undesirable behaviour from certain people within the online community who very loudly and often declared that an influx of players would "ruin" HH and turn it into the mess we see with competitive 40k. Of course, they've been proven wrong already but they keep on shouting about it.

I'm not going to lie, the more they shout about it the more I want competitive 30K to happen out of spite.

fething things for everyone just to spite a small subset of annoying people is surely the mature way of going about it.

 Laughing Man wrote:
I'm not going to lie, the more they shout about it the more I want competitive 30K to happen out of spite.

Not only would that make that subgroup extremely happy in their unhealthy way but it would taint the game for many others who don't like competitive gaming but aren't gakheads about it.
The better choice is to just let them fester in their self-made misery.

I hope this all leads to a plastic Warhound.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ash didn't seem to have a problem magnetizing it

That man is also a sorcerer who often has the new minis painted before he's peeled off the shrinkwrap...

Whilst I would get one, not sure given the sprues it would need it would be cheaper.
I've built a Manta*, and never again.



*The damn Epic one

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I hope this all leads to a plastic Warhound.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ash didn't seem to have a problem magnetizing it

That man is also a sorcerer who often has the new minis painted before he's peeled off the shrinkwrap...

I would love to buy 2-4 plastic warhounds, but first I think more use would be gained by a plastic thunderhawk and cerastus knight kits. Though if the warhound was plasticized, maybe GW would update the rules to make it worth its point cost, or cost what it is worth.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I hope this all leads to a plastic Warhound.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ash didn't seem to have a problem magnetizing it

That man is also a sorcerer who often has the new minis painted before he's peeled off the shrinkwrap...

I would love to buy 2-4 plastic warhounds, but first I think more use would be gained by a plastic thunderhawk and cerastus knight kits. Though if the warhound was plasticized, maybe GW would update the rules to make it worth its point cost, or cost what it is worth.

I do wonder how popular things like plastic Thunderhawks and Warhounds would be. On the one hand I'm like "oh yeah that'd be so cool!", but having bought big kits in the past (like 1/32 model aircraft) in practice I know it's a pain in the arse because they take up too much storage space and transport would be a nightmare. I know some people would buy them, but I feel like the actual sales wouldn't match the internet hype around them.

I've always said that if they did a plastic Thunderhawk I'd get two:

1. One to build as normal.
2. And the other to build and then throw off a 3-story balcony to break 'naturally' and then turn into terrain.

Also gaming side they are getting so big they are breaking things. Unless they neuter them to be barely better than knights they will cost so much it's pretty much auto lose. To not auto lose by scenario need to be so undercosted on killinyness/durability that they then invalidate other armies(knights/tank heavy armies being first in sight).

Plastic warhound at say 75 pounds, skip for me. Too much hassle to storage with no gaming value.

If a plastic Warhound came with weapon options, I'd be tempted to pick up multiples to turn those extra weapons into emplaced guns for terrain.

I think their best use is as terrain or set decoration....

While I don't doubt that there are quit a few people who would buy one, I highly doubt that enough people would buy a plastic Thawk to make producing it profitable, much less profitable enough for GW to consider it.
I mean besides the high price of the model most people will struggle with space to put it.

Won't say it's impossible, I know better than that, but as Captain Sparrow said impropable.

Instead I would prefer for them to release kits that are actually useful in a normal game, like the rest of the heavy weapons, the contemptor, assault marines/upgrades (I hope for different poses in a fully new set) etc.

 MarcusConstantin wrote:
While I don't doubt that there are quit a few people who would buy one, I highly doubt that enough people would buy a plastic Thawk to make producing it profitable, much less profitable enough for GW to consider it.
I mean besides the high price of the model most people will struggle with space to put it.

Won't say it's impossible, I know better than that, but as Captain Sparrow said impropable.

Instead I would prefer for them to release kits that are actually useful in a normal game, like the rest of the heavy weapons, the contemptor, assault marines/upgrades (I hope for different poses in a fully new set) etc.

They’d still sell more than the resin version, and by a country mile.

Thunderhawks are cool.

Thunderhawks are iconic.

Thunderhawks are currently

A) Prohibitively expensive

3) Cast in resin.

Me? No resin, thank you. The £549 price tag isn’t insurmountable, but the material itself is 100% a deal breaker.

Now. Make it plastic. Make it Stockholm Value, and tag it at £250. It’s still less than 50% of the FW kit, and it will sell pretty well. Certainly I’d imagine it’d make its production and die cutting costs back on it’s pretty-order window. Not a shadow of a doubt there.

Because Heresy is popular. And those coming over from Heresy 1st Edition have provably and demonstrably Deep Pockets.

honestly is a plastic hunderhawk went for 200-300 dollars I think GW'd sell a ton of em. no people wouldn't be racing to buy em toi put on the table but I bet most marine players woul;d want one as a display peice.