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Voss wrote:

No one said anything about jumping forward in time. Just... not pretending that the aliens around at the time mysteriously don't exist and won't try to take advantage of everything going on.
And that the canonical, recorded battles against said xenos didn't happen - Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, for example, were happily shooting eldar in the face around the time of the daemonsword fiasco.

But you have the game that does exactly what you want - lots of xenos and stuff. Its called Wh40k and have everything you need.

I like Horus Heresy the way it is. Sometimes less is more.

However i would like to see Epic and Adeptus Titanicus have their 40k iterations with xenos just like you have Warhammer 40k game.

Nvm.

Xenos rules are definitely coming soon from the Liber Obscura / Liber Panoptica people

 Gert wrote:
My favourite HH thing is that Land Speeders have a Chainsword as a combat weapon which means World Eaters can swap it for Chainaxes.
Land Speeders aren't vehicles, they are chariots.

Cheap land speeders are legitimately good for WE. They can drop in / move rapidly up the board and tie up valuable shooty units.

They won't kill much, but with T5 and a solid amount of wounds they'll generally take a shooty unit out of the game for a turn or 2, and if they get in on a 5 man support / seeker / heavy weapons squad, they might just win.

EDIT: That said, I would eat my shoes if GW ever released official Xenos content for 30k. It'd make it a very literal direct competitor with 40k, which would be stupid even by their low-brow standards.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Xenos rules are definitely coming soon from the Liber Obscura / Liber Panoptica people

I'm looking forward to this!

Please post a link here when they do arrive, please!

The Florida Heresy 30K Facebook group also has Ork rules.

Da Butcha wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
30k seems legitimately better in every way, unless you absolutely cannot love without seeing your sm gunning down orks or something.

Or, if, like me, your primary army (and love) is Orks, which somehow were a HUGE threat at Ullanor but never troubled anyone ever again until after the Heresy.

"Look, da humies is havin' wot we call a family crisis, so we should just give 'em some time to work it out. Then come back in, say, a thousand years and krump 'em all good."

probably too busy starting the process of turning Ullanor into an attackmoon.

Glumy wrote:

Voss wrote:

No one said anything about jumping forward in time. Just... not pretending that the aliens around at the time mysteriously don't exist and won't try to take advantage of everything going on.
And that the canonical, recorded battles against said xenos didn't happen - Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, for example, were happily shooting eldar in the face around the time of the daemonsword fiasco.

But you have the game that does exactly what you want - lots of xenos and stuff. Its called Wh40k and have everything you need.

That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

I reckon you could probably make an okay Xenos counts as using the militia rules. Certainly for orks with the combat varients. The third line rule also works great for looted wagons.

That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

As much as I think 40k is a dumpster fire getting more trash thrown on it daily. There are a ton of folks who like wombo-combo of the month games. And 40k does have in general excellent miniatures.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

Fan rules hurt who again?

 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)

And Tyranids and Necrons and GSC.

But on the otherhand there is all sorts of other weird creatures you could put together to represent pre heresy xenos fights. You want to play out the battles on Murder? Do a pitched battle with bad odds for the marines against some nids to represent the various types of megarachnids.. Hold out long enough to send out the distress signal the other marines picked up.

The HH era is interesting for both the large scale drama of betrayal but also the weird alien races humanity faced.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

it's not forcing anything... these factions already exist in the fluff.... (except tau i guess)

And Tyranids and Necrons and GSC.

Not necessarily true for Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons have the Triarch units active the whole time and 90% sure there's recorded cases for two Tyranid fleets (or at least rumored), so there's entirely justification for them to be encountered during the Great Crusade or the Heresy itself.


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 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?

40K fans are weird like that.. They are not content on sticking to 40K, they want to corrupt all GW's scifi games with their stuff.. They already corrupting KT21 thread with their wishlisting, and now on this thread too..

GW really should sell rules for all their legacy 40K editions, seems like there is a market for 40K fans who hate the current edition with a passion

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?

Pretty much no. Nothing was remotely strong enough.

The Ulanar (sp) triumph was basically the end of the great crusade as a challenging endeavor / actual war. The last big threat had been shattered and all that was left was mopping up the remnants, but said remnants (including eldar craftworlds) were completely incapable of putting up any form of actual challenge. Say what you want about 40k fluff (I say it's poorly written) but when it comes to exterminating sectoral empires or destroying an eldar craftworld, a single full-strength modern chapter is generally overkill. The legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands with substantially better equipment and none of the current gene defects (except the blood angels liked drinking blood and Angron was giving his legion brain damage). Even the awakening necron empires would have, in accordance with fluff, gotten their gak handed to them on a silver platter. Even hive fleets would've been routinely dumpstered; again I think that's dumb, but it's lore as it stands.

The Eldar did have a very small hand in trying to prevent Fulgrim from being corrupted, and they probably had some invisible involvement here and there to direct things, but other than that no one else had the subtly to get involved and even they lacked the actual force to be involved.

The primary focus of the heresy was in retaking (or defending) captured worlds / purging traitor worlds while making a blitzkrieg push for the Sol system to try and unseat the emperor. No one was interested in purging small pockets of xenos, and said xenos were not interested in messing with the Imperium after the unholy can of genocide it had been unleashing on the galaxy. There was probably some ork involvement but again, 500 marines of a 200,000 strong legion getting sent off to curb-stomp an ork waaagh in the span of a few weeks isn't even worth calling a foot note. And any Waaagh which made contact with any legion force would be promptly annihilated without fuss due to the strength and tech of said legions.

I mean, you could say that about most factions at their height in 40k lore. Eldar, Necrons, Humanity, Orks even current nids. They could wipe out any individual other race, usually not doing so because of internal fighting like a heresy, some galactic calamity like the birth of Slanessh or multiple races having to broteam for a bit to fight back a bigger threat ala blood angels and crons vs nids.

Why they don't? Plot contrivances mostly.

But there has been times when a threat would need multiple expeditionary fleets to take care of. Murder as an example. Would they be able to stand up to one of the larger legions? Nah. But may have wiped out or made ineffective one of the smaller legions.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Yeah i knew it was about the rules.

We are living in the golden age of the hobby. Lots of plastic releases, plethora of old editions rules, alternative systems like One Page Rules and more, 3d printers.... There was nothing like this back in the day.

...and someone tells me he doesnt like the current 40k rules? You know what i did when 40k hit the 8th edition and i didnt like rules/fluff? I changed the system to play. I started Horus Heresy and now its my main system. It wasnt easy several years ago as i had to work to build the environment for it in my city - find players, teach new ones.

If you dont like the current 40k dont force yourself to play it but find alternative. Start it and work to build the environment for it. It wouldnt be easy but believe me you will find other like minded people that for example like 4th edition 40k or One Page Rules. These people are hidden and you just have to find them.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Gert wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's under the assumption 40k has functional rules though.

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

Fan rules hurt who again?

I can understand the need / want to keep 30k 30k. And from the official side i hope that the smaller focus on more similar factions does indeed improve the quality of the game. And there are some pitfalls already present in 30k which i think need adressing first before we port over certain other factions. F.e. Dreadnoughts being far to sturdy is already a problem, i'd rather not see an uber kan wall.

Otoh, the fact that this many people decided that 30k looks better from a mechanical and factiondesign standpoint should be indicative that a lot went wrong with the mainline ruleset, i should know, i am too basically someone that switched due to an piling on of bad design and rules descisions for my factions, well piling in sofar as my main force got squated and my CSM got gutted...

BUT, 30k has thankfully a lot of lists that are very customisable and with a bit of fantasy you could easily represent proto-tau, eldar, etc.Which if you also go the full length should with kitbashes etc. make for an awesome game in itself.

Edit: as an aside, GW legended recently HH units out of 40k , including but not limited to a whole lot of daemonengines, especially Decimators and the Xana lineage of fighters / Fighterbombers make no sense whatsoever to be declared HH units ... but realistically, i don't think many people would be mad if one would use Decimators for Dark-mech count as bots. The whole episode does show a disheartening lack of knowledge about the universe tough, or respectivly that directives from the financialdepartment still trump universe rules.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Did the Marines never fight ANYTHING but Marines during the Heresy? Literally nothing ever cropped up?

Sure they did, other human factions such as the Mechanicum, Titan Legions, Imperial Army, and local militia forces. The closest thing to Xenos either side fought was Daemons.
If we take the start of the Heresy to be the culling at Isstvan III and the Burning of Prospero, then the only confirmed instance of an Imperial force fighting Xenos is the White Scars doing Ullanor cleanup duties at Chondax where they ended up fighting the Alpha Legion, which is the focus of that campaign.
The Orks were literally a sideshow to keep the White Scars occupied until Horus could maneuver events to get the Scars on his side. The Scars themselves didn't even see the need to be purging Chondax because the Ork presence was so minimal it wasn't a real threat but the Khan took the assignment out of loyalty and so that he could keep doing what he wanted out of the view of Imperial bureaucracy.
The only other time Xenos "enemies" show up is the Cabal who did no actual fighting and IIRC some Chaos-corrupted species were used as fodder alongside the Chaos Cults and Traitor Imperial Army units during the Siege of Terra.

 Gert wrote:

Just because you don't like the current edition of 40k, doesn't mean you get to force Xenos rules into HH. Go play another edition you do like rather than forcing unnecessary additions to a good game.

I wasn't trying to force Xenos rules into Horus Heresy. I was responding to the sentiment that if you aren't enthusiastic about the current 40K ruleset, you can just jump ship to Horus Heresy, another GW-supported game. I was pointing out that glib solution doesn't work for quite a few players, who play something other than Imperials (or ex-Imperials).


Obviously, it's not impossible (given the existence of fan edits), but also obviously, given the prevalence of the above sentiment (which I don't even disagree with), it's also not a simple, easy solution.

I'd be happy with Xenos in the 30k timeframe, I'd be even happier if all the HH units in the books were available first though

Not sure how any of this is either news or rumours…

Da Butcha wrote:
I wasn't trying to force Xenos rules into Horus Heresy. I was responding to the sentiment that if you aren't enthusiastic about the current 40K ruleset, you can just jump ship to Horus Heresy, another GW-supported game. I was pointing out that glib solution doesn't work for quite a few players, who play something other than Imperials (or ex-Imperials).


Obviously, it's not impossible (given the existence of fan edits), but also obviously, given the prevalence of the above sentiment (which I don't even disagree with), it's also not a simple, easy solution.

I wasn't quoting or responding to you at all. I also don't think anyone has actually claimed that if people are disappointed with 40k that they should do HH instead because it's not for everyone, especially those who play Xenos armies.
What has been said is that 40k CSM players who want to play their Legions as they are meant to be played should play HH instead because the game does their rules far better than 40k has in a very long time.

leopard wrote:
I'd be happy with Xenos in the 30k timeframe, I'd be even happier if all the HH units in the books were available first though

Fun fact, the majority of the "30k timeframe" takes place within the 40k ruleset. The Heresy officially ends in 15.M31 with the Second Founding taking place in 21.M31 and Roboute Guilliman's reforms turning the Imperial Army into the Guard and Navy. With the Mechanicus formally turned into an Adeptus during the Heresy and the Custodes swearing to never leave the Emperor's side again, the last vestiges of the old Imperium are wiped away when the last Loyal Primarch disappears by 209.M31.
When the War of the Beast breaks out in 500.M32, the Heresy is forgotten and the Primarchs are revered as Saints by the Imperial Creed. Some warriors of the old Legions still survive such as Maximus Thane but the time of the Legions is long dead.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Not necessarily true for Tyranids and Necrons. Necrons have the Triarch units active the whole time and 90% sure there's recorded cases for two Tyranid fleets (or at least rumored), so there's entirely justification for them to be encountered during the Great Crusade or the Heresy itself.

Tyranids literally only know about the galaxy because of an event in the Horus Heresy that they didn't partake in. And while the Triarchs and Trazyn are both active during the Heresy, the Triarchs are active for the reason of making sure that the rest of the Necrons aren't breaking the rules, one of which is to not draw attention to themselves by partaking in events of the galaxy(as mentioned in The Infinite and The Divine, which begins during the Heresy).

Throwing another log onto the fire: Part of the appeal of 40k is that every race is equally fethed and, despite that, your dudes can have their own story that actually works.

Any sort of xeno race playing in the HH - let alone the great crusade - doesn’t have that benefit. The army would be absolutely dead via the mere act of making contact, because even if they win the game they’re pretty much immediately pasted by the rest of the legion present. Or within a few days due being in proximity or a legion force.

Isn’t that basically just genestealers cults tho? You either die or live long enough to become dinner

 GaroRobe wrote:
Isn’t that basically just genestealers cults tho? You either die or live long enough to become dinner

Massively oversimplified yes. And the reason Xenos shouldn't be in the Heresy isn't because they're underdogs, it's because they were contained and/or wiped out during the Crusade.
The only argument anyone can come up with is "Oh but they were in the galaxy" which is beyond weak.