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Greenfield wrote: They already made a digital version for Aeronautica Imperialis.
Like I said earlier, there whole "we already have a model" thing is highly overstated. There's virtually zero overlap between models for 28mm and models for Epic scale. Moving between scales requires rebuilding 99% of the model, features that look good at Epic scale will be comically oversized at 28mm and features that look good at 28mm will be too small to manufacture at Epic scale.
and it also opens up the possibility of plastic in future
It doesn't. Making a good plastic kit takes way more than taking a 3d printing file and saying "make some molds". You have to completely rework the model to split it into sections that work for injection molds, having that source file saves very little time. And if you're going to put in all the work of preparing for plastic why bother with the resin kit at all? Replacing the resin kit only makes sense if you can do it with some quick repairs to the original master model and want to get it back on the market as cheaply as possible.
Yeah, designing a model for resin is very different from plastic. A lot of geometry and detail needs to be altered in order to port a model designed for one medium to the other. People have a perception that having a model sculpted for one means you have like 80% of what you need for the other, but its really more like 30-40%. The hard part isnt sculpting the model, its turning it into a product and optimizing it for production and assembly.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Greenfield wrote: They already made a digital version for Aeronautica Imperialis.
Like I said earlier, there whole "we already have a model" thing is highly overstated. There's virtually zero overlap between models for 28mm and models for Epic scale. Moving between scales requires rebuilding 99% of the model, features that look good at Epic scale will be comically oversized at 28mm and features that look good at 28mm will be too small to manufacture at Epic scale.
I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I do quite a bit of CAD related to my work, and I'd MUCH rather start with an existing 3D model than have to build a new one from scratch. So long as the original model wasn't made by a complete fool, tweaking dimensions and adding extra details on existing parts is way quicker than doing it from nothing. Hell, even if the original CAD was made by a complete fool, I'd still import it as a static object to draw over and it takes out a lot of the brain work of "what processes do I need to do to make this geometry..." which means the whole process goes a lot faster.
Also, we're talking about an Arvus here, even if CAD didn't exist before, it's got to be one of the easiest models I could imagine to CAD up. No CAD model is trivial... but if I were to describe any CAD model as trivial, it'd probably be CAD of an Arvus
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/13 02:59:53
Greenfield wrote: They already made a digital version for Aeronautica Imperialis.
Like I said earlier, there whole "we already have a model" thing is highly overstated. There's virtually zero overlap between models for 28mm and models for Epic scale. Moving between scales requires rebuilding 99% of the model, features that look good at Epic scale will be comically oversized at 28mm and features that look good at 28mm will be too small to manufacture at Epic scale.
and it also opens up the possibility of plastic in future
It doesn't. Making a good plastic kit takes way more than taking a 3d printing file and saying "make some molds". You have to completely rework the model to split it into sections that work for injection molds, having that source file saves very little time. And if you're going to put in all the work of preparing for plastic why bother with the resin kit at all? Replacing the resin kit only makes sense if you can do it with some quick repairs to the original master model and want to get it back on the market as cheaply as possible.
It is pretty likely that GW wouldn't expect to sell enough full size Arvus flyers to justify injection mold tooling for it. At the end of the day it's still a niche unit in a relatively niche army.
However given that we know the Arvus is going to be a staple transport unit in Legions Imperialis, it's likely that the existing resin Aeronautica model wouldn't be able to keep up with the production volumes customers would require. GW recently stated that their first step to creating an Epic scale model is to design it in CAD for 28mm scale.
Redesigning the model in CAD is worthwhile because:
a) They can produce a new digital design that addresses any previous QA issues with the first FW model
b) That also makes it easier to maintain molds in future; just print out a new master model
c) They can now use that same design to mass produce a consistent plastic Arvus sprue for Epic scale
d) It's now a digital asset that can be used for artwork
lord_blackfang wrote: Does Warcry terrain that they put into one FOMO box with a tiny print run make 500k back?
I think the terrain sprues come out of China?
But generally, yeah, it clearly doesn't cost GW a huge amount to cut moulds these days, it wouldn't surprise me if the limitation is on the free time for the injection moulding machines rather than cutting sprues.
lord_blackfang wrote: Does Warcry terrain that they put into one FOMO box with a tiny print run make 500k back?
I think the terrain sprues come out of China?
But generally, yeah, it clearly doesn't cost GW a huge amount to cut moulds these days, it wouldn't surprise me if the limitation is on the free time for the injection moulding machines rather than cutting sprues.
Injection molds are still relatively expensive to produce. What confuses matters is that in recent years GW started using aluminium injection molds for limited time products like store anniversary characters. These are much cheaper than steel but also give a fraction of the lifetime use (e.g. 10,000 casts rather than 100,000).
You're right in that time required by both injection molding and the toolmakers will be a factor though. Not only are GW products expected to give a minimum level of profit (£100k was mentioned as an example on the Painting Phase), but they'll be weighed against other items competing for the same resources. If GW forecast an full size Arvus flyer to make £100k profit but other Solar Auxillia vehicle kits would make £150k+, then that's an easy decision for them.
Greenfield wrote: They already made a digital version for Aeronautica Imperialis.
Like I said earlier, there whole "we already have a model" thing is highly overstated. There's virtually zero overlap between models for 28mm and models for Epic scale. Moving between scales requires rebuilding 99% of the model, features that look good at Epic scale will be comically oversized at 28mm and features that look good at 28mm will be too small to manufacture at Epic scale.
I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I do quite a bit of CAD related to my work, and I'd MUCH rather start with an existing 3D model than have to build a new one from scratch. So long as the original model wasn't made by a complete fool, tweaking dimensions and adding extra details on existing parts is way quicker than doing it from nothing. Hell, even if the original CAD was made by a complete fool, I'd still import it as a static object to draw over and it takes out a lot of the brain work of "what processes do I need to do to make this geometry..." which means the whole process goes a lot faster.
Also, we're talking about an Arvus here, even if CAD didn't exist before, it's got to be one of the easiest models I could imagine to CAD up. No CAD model is trivial... but if I were to describe any CAD model as trivial, it'd probably be CAD of an Arvus
Do you do anything relating to plastic injection molding? Because it's a good bit more complicated than tweaking dimensions and adding details. There's wall thicknesses, draft angles, filled joints, etc etc etc that need to be taken into account.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
lord_blackfang wrote: Does Warcry terrain that they put into one FOMO box with a tiny print run make 500k back?
I think the terrain sprues come out of China?
But generally, yeah, it clearly doesn't cost GW a huge amount to cut moulds these days, it wouldn't surprise me if the limitation is on the free time for the injection moulding machines rather than cutting sprues.
Injection molds are still relatively expensive to produce. What confuses matters is that in recent years GW started using aluminium injection molds for limited time products like store anniversary characters. These are much cheaper than steel but also give a fraction of the lifetime use (e.g. 10,000 casts rather than 100,000).
I guess when I said "huge amount... these days" I was comparing to the old estimates we used to have when they were outsourcing.
It'd be interesting to know what GW effectively pays for creating a plastic mould versus a resin one, while I'm sure it's not cheap I believe most of the estimates we have are from back when CNC machining was far less common than it is today and machining time was far more expensive. Also I imagine swapping from pantographing to digital models has made the machining process faster.
Greenfield wrote: They already made a digital version for Aeronautica Imperialis.
Like I said earlier, there whole "we already have a model" thing is highly overstated. There's virtually zero overlap between models for 28mm and models for Epic scale. Moving between scales requires rebuilding 99% of the model, features that look good at Epic scale will be comically oversized at 28mm and features that look good at 28mm will be too small to manufacture at Epic scale.
I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I do quite a bit of CAD related to my work, and I'd MUCH rather start with an existing 3D model than have to build a new one from scratch. So long as the original model wasn't made by a complete fool, tweaking dimensions and adding extra details on existing parts is way quicker than doing it from nothing. Hell, even if the original CAD was made by a complete fool, I'd still import it as a static object to draw over and it takes out a lot of the brain work of "what processes do I need to do to make this geometry..." which means the whole process goes a lot faster.
Also, we're talking about an Arvus here, even if CAD didn't exist before, it's got to be one of the easiest models I could imagine to CAD up. No CAD model is trivial... but if I were to describe any CAD model as trivial, it'd probably be CAD of an Arvus
Do you do anything relating to plastic injection molding? Because it's a good bit more complicated than tweaking dimensions and adding details. There's wall thicknesses, draft angles, filled joints, etc etc etc that need to be taken into account.
I wasn't talking about plastic injection moulding, I was talking about CAD for resin moulds, we already know it's coming out in resin not plastic.
Do you think GW are physically refreshing their ancient masters of the Arvus? Or converting it to CAD, 3D printing it, prepping it, etc like they do with all other modern FW models? I'd be somewhat surprised if it was the former.
I'd be moderately surprised if the Arvus comes out in plastic in the future though, I guess it's possible, but it doesn't seem like the sort of item that would push the volume required to justify it and if they were going to convert it, surely now would be the time.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/08/13 15:25:12
tauist wrote: I doubt GW could make 500k+ from a plastic Arvus, and if they can't, they will keep it in resin
500k? Where did you get that number from? An injection mold is about a 1/10th of that.
Even less since they own their entire process end to end.
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Literally getting a praetor they already have in a different pose before Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Salamanders, Raven Guard and probably more I’m forgetting have any legion specific praetors.
On the plus side though, the last sentence of the article: "There’ll also be plenty more to see from the Age of Darkness, as the threat of corrupted Daemon Engines looms over a new entry in the Exemplary Battles series." Does not sound like a full Ruinstorm list to me, but it is something.
ImAGeek wrote: Literally getting a praetor they already have in a different pose before Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Salamanders, Raven Guard and probably more I’m forgetting have any legion specific praetors.
Yeah this is really disappointing. It adds literally nothing but a new pose, and not even an interesting one:
Spoiler:
Old:
New:
A completely necessary release, deserving of all our attention! /s
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/13 17:34:05
The new pose does seem like it would be easier to switch in alternate weapons in case you don't want a shield?
Still very disappointing. Seems like they could've changed the iconography and slapped two lightning claws on it for Raven Guard, or two axes for World Eaters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/13 17:34:30
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
Darnok wrote: On the plus side though, the last sentence of the article: "There’ll also be plenty more to see from the Age of Darkness, as the threat of corrupted Daemon Engines looms over a new entry in the Exemplary Battles series." Does not sound like a full Ruinstorm list to me, but it is something.
Probably the ones in the "Heresy Legends" for 40K being put in 30K.
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" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
