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 Dysartes wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).

The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.

 Fayric wrote:
I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.

Also, firing is a pretty drastical step that you would rarely employ on otherwise-adequate employees for missing goals sporadically due to reasons that may or may not be entirely in their control. Reducing or cancelling bonuses, doing a performance review and such certainly, that's what they're there for, but straight firing would be shooting yourself in the foot really. If you set the bonus targets right, i.e. not too high and not too low, you'd expect your employees to fall short of them sometime, if they succeed all the time the goals are probably too low, if they never get them they're set unrealistically high. Now, never being quite up to expectations is another thing, that's where you start thinking about letting people go - but depending on the position, that may take time as well, you'd want a trained replacement ready to go when they actually leave.

If GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box
this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set

yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.

that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved

 Dysartes wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Perhaps GW cares not who buys their boxes as long as they sell, but the project would never have been approved by HQ if they had not shown calculations saying they will reach x new costumers (perhaps aim at Total War players that realised the actual physical game didnt exist any more).

The LARP tie-in is the thing that's designed to reach new costumers. You'd hope TOW might interest some new customers, though.

I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.

I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.

 Fayric wrote:
I bet they have precise goals how many new players they must reach each yearly quarter or someone gets fired. Thats how you run a company.

In your dystopian land of no employee protections, maybe - takes a bit more than one bad quarter to fire someone over here, fortunately.

"Failure to meet performance standards" will get you fired for cause pretty much anywhere. But it would have to be a pretty spectacularly bad single quarter to be grounds for immediate termination though. Under more routine circumstances I expect it would take several consecutive bad quarters to do someone in; maybe even an entire bad year.

If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.

 kodos wrote:
If GW wanted to bring in new players or the game would have a target on new people, there would need to be a starter box

Depends of GW's definition of a "starter box", actually. It's clear from the FAQ and the clarification that went after on social media that the definition was not the same in the players' mind and GW's team.

From what I understood from the FAQ, it's not that GW doesn't want to bring in new players. Their target is simply not total newbies in wargames, more like people who already know wargames and are looking for something "deeper" than a simple game system. Or old Battle players.

Horus Heresy is the same. It's not targeted to total newbies as well, mostly people nostalgic of old 40k versions and who want to explore the past of 40k. They're usually not people who never played a wargame before.

this is the reason why all the speculation about Empire coming first in a civil war theme to have a pure Empire box that can be used to build 2 forces, or 1, just like the HH set

yet it looks more like HH1, but without the board games to get plastic models and a made to order like release with 2 factions that are seen as iconic for the game by the company because they never made it to AoS.

TBH, the speculation was more about the map they revealed first and the timeline they're focusing on. Actually it was Kislev they were talking about first, and at that time it was believed Kislev was one of the first armies.

Now who knows anymore ?

What I agree with you is the comparison with HH1, but mostly on the collection part. It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.

that the one person responsible for that will be fired is unlikely, as the whole situation is already a mess and the one who started the joke would be long gone already
it would be more likely that the one handling it leaves if HQ tells him he failed to reach certain targets but the resources/strategies to reach them were never approved

It's just the communication and the hype built by Warhammer Community that is a mess. The game's development follows its own course, it's normal it takes a lot of time. It's not something small they're working on, after all - we're talking about reviving a game with a lot of different factions. And well...since it's a Specialist Games project, we sadly are forced to accept the fact ressources put into it are not the same than for their main games.

Sarouan wrote:
It really feels like the project is about collecting an army from that period, a bit like a historical army. Feels like it's targeted at collectors / painters more than gamers.

It feels like a project designed to make use of existing resources with minimal expenditures. Bringing back old kits with a few resin / plastic additions is much less resource intense. And they get to undercut the competitors that arose when they originally murdered WFB. Seems like a win win for GW.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

With Necromunda at launch, they sold the Gangs of the Underhive book, which was basic rules for all 6 main gangs. They don't sell it any more, but I've still got my copy. Also a Gangs of Legend pdf for free with even more basic-er stats.

No they didnt. Hardback Gangs of the Underhive was released 1 year after the starter box. After all 6 gangs were released. Before hardback books there were softback Gang War books.

 Vulcan wrote:

I suspect the main market they are looking toward with TOW is the old WFB players who left after End Times. Which would also chip away at the customers of Mantic and other 'Ranks & Flanks' wargames that have sprung up since the launch of AoS. Bringing in Mantic (and other such games) customers would be a secondary goal.

I suspect they won't be as successful at that as they hope, though. Whether it'll be successful enough to be more than a flash in the pan, we'll see.

From what I gather form discussions in the Kings of War community there appear to be three groups:
1- Have moved on to a better game/company as far as they are concerned and don't intend to play a GW game ever again.
2- Will give it a go and maybe play TOW along with other games.
3- Are just playing the available rank and flank fantasy wargame and will definitely switch to TOW when it's available.

I assume that other games have similar groups, but different proportions of each.

From this discussion it appears that there is another group:

4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.

GW's target market has to be 3 and 4, with some of 2.
I think the reason for announcing so long before having something to release is to to stop people becoming 1 and 4's from becoming 3's (and potentially then 1's).
I'll limit the salt to suggesting that GW does not want people trying games outside the GW bubble if they can help it.

I think that the genie is out of the bottle and that GW will never regain the market share WHFB enjoyed.
Too many people have moved on and other games have grown enough to establish themselves.

 DarkBlack wrote:

From this discussion it appears that there is another group:

4- Only plays GW and are waiting for TOW to finally play rank and flank again.

This group is the one playing old versions of Battle they still own / get by other means - so they don't have to wait to play rank and file again, they never stopped playing it . And with the last previews, it's not universal. They mostly are looking at TOW because it means the return of their loved universe (and miniatures they can get for their armies), but they are watching if the game will be worth it or they simply keep playing at the old versions like usual.

Their members usually follow KoW groups for painted miniatures and such (the opposite is true as well). Lots of inspiration to get from each.

this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available), but there are literal people who play nothing at all (or at least no Fantasy game) and wait for GW to release something for them to play again and the longer GW waits the bigger the chance they finally wander off

some of the local HH players are from that group, no matter what other Fantasy game is available to play, they are waiting for TOW

 herjan1987 wrote:
If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.

Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 herjan1987 wrote:
If I remember right they said, that there are going to be some kind of Start Collecting! style boxes, it would be not far fetched, if one or two boxes of these sets contains enough minis for let's say 1000 point game, which would lower the cost of entry. Thus there would be a chance to lure in more new blood for the game.

Whilest i think a full "basic" army at 1000 pts in a box would be preciscly the way to get people into the hobby, i doubt GW's pricing structure would do the playerbase much of a service.
Compare 1000 pts in ogres, which basically amounts to a Tyrant (maybee), 1 Squad of bulls, 1-2 squads of gnoblars, maybee a squad of iron guts and then compare that to 1000 pts for Vampire counts. Not even going into skaven.

I am only speculating with 1000 points, maybe GW will bring out a game mode like Vanguard Clash, which is played at 500 to 750 points and they will just rock everything that excisted in the history of low point entry games.

 kodos wrote:
this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),

Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.

I am following this news simply to see what old kits get a release and can be purchased again.

Expectations for the rules are almost nothing. Pretty sure it will be similar to most modern games. Lots and lots of special rules for every model. No real tactical decisions other than how to optimize your special rules and diminish the opponents. But I will have a look and play a game or 2. It might surprise me.

Sticking with 3rd edition but looking to see if I can pick up some extra models.

I have every army for third with the exception of Slaan, (which I am going to proxy lizardmen for) and Skaven. So perhaps time to load up on hordes of rats.

Regarding other games. I played Hordes of the Things a bit, Raven, and Fantasy Rules!. Tried Mantic also. I like Warhammer because of the various formations a unit can adopt. Being 8 wide and 3 deep vs. 6 wide and 4 deep can make a difference.

Just my opinion though.

I am pretty sure I am not the intended audience. But I have spent a lot of cash on GW since about 1987.

I wish them luck.

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),

Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.

I have not played fantasy battle since late 90s. Me and a friend was just about to give it a try when they switched to AoS, so I put all those high eleves I just bought in the closet and kept playing 40k Started collecting AoS but dont play it, and started HH because a friend was really in to it. The friends I play with always end up playing just GW games because its the only game system that is easily accesable for people in my area. So, I would fit really well in your analyse At the moment Im quite fond of 6th edition fantasy battle reports on You Tube, and will most likely get models for ToW but not play.

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
this is group #3 (playing whatever is locally available),

Nope, it's group 4. Like it or not, old versions of Battle are still GW games, even if they're not supported anymore. Same for Epic and Battlefleet Gothic.

Kodos gets it.
Old editions also fall under what's currently available.

There are as well people playing other GW games like AoS, 40k and HH, but these aren't in risk of wandering off simply because...well, they're still playing GW games anyway. The only risk there is is simply they keep playing what they are actually playing at. That's why they can wait so long and they're not especially in a hurry.

I'd say the reason why they keep sticking to GW is simply because of the community / player base. And nostalgia. TBH, the part of "finally playing R&F again" is a bit of an excuse. If they really wanted to, there are already options for that. If Conquest and KoW didn't manage to win their heart so far, they won't in the future as well.

Yes. Those players would be the ones GW don't have to worry about (i.e. group 4).

The most common reason I hear for people staying in the GW bubble is that people don't think that there is enough going on outdide the GW bubble to find opponents and/or a gaming group. Often because thier gaming group/store is only interested in GW.

In my experience this is rarely actually the case.
Most players of any game are usually unaware of most of the other gaming going on nearby.
I only felt comfortable entirely quitting GW after I found that I could almost certainly find a game of Infinity in any city with wargamers.
I don't even play Infinity anymore (for very different reasons) and there's still more wargaming available than I have time for.

I think nostalgia is why some players give new stuff from GW a look rather than moving on entirely.

From over on TGA, seems like it originally came from a FB group? These should be from the commemorative stamps coming out in the UK at the end of June

 Matrindur wrote:
From over on TGA, seems like it originally came from a FB group? These should be from the commemorative stamps coming out in the UK at the end of June

8th of June, not end of June, as per the official Royal Mail calendar:



https://www.royalmail.com/sending/stamps

There should be a preview of the art on them on this website two weeks before release, so pretty soon.

I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...

They usually do a lot of different motives for a theme, there'll probably be ones with artwork as well.

Dang I thought they were selling 5 models for 2.20...I'm like dang that's a way to make the game affordable and easy to get into! Lol.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've been looking forward to those Warhammer Stamps, but I didn't expect them to just be photos of miniatures. I expected artwork...

These are 'widescreen' high-value stamps, I expect the smaller, portrait 1st, 2nd class etc. will have art, although it could just be a single model, I guess.

From Reddit:

Heh, front and centre on the Slaves to Darkness stamp, a limited edition miniature that no-one can buy!

So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW

Crossposting myself from the stamp thread:

I can't put my finger on why, but these feel fake as hell...

The 0s in 40.000 have diagonal lines inside, which GW usually does not do, the AOS texts have something weird going on with them and look like they change size, and the TOW text on the dwarfs looks misaligned, although that may be due to the background. It's either something like the cardboard backing being bent as hell combined with the protective foil, but something is very weird about all of this.

Also: upper right corner: Pack. No. 69? Really?

Looking it up it should be #634, so okay, could be a 3, i guess. Also the black background is weird, the other sets all have much more elaborate background designs, but that could also be a design decision, or this set is a misprint that should have been destroyed and got nabbed by someone instead.

Battle for Skull Pass artwork is labelled as "Warhammer The Old World" artwork in the stamp set, interestingly.

 kodos wrote:
So we can assume that the more modern Warhammer Fantasy kits are removed from AoS and go back to TOW
While the newer AoS kits are not meant to be used in TOW

Why wouldn't they just throw in extra bases and have the sets used for both? ISTR that there was quite a while when Demons came with both round & square bases for WFB and WH40K.

New Developer Diary:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

Core factions:

These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements. Fans of these armies can also all look forward to some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits.

What About the Other Factions?

Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.

Dark Elves
Skaven
Vampire Counts
Daemons of Chaos
Ogre Kingdoms
Lizardmen
Chaos Dwarfs

These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake. We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Very interesting, only 9 factions. Still a lot more than some people were expecting.

Narrows things down to a very limited classic fantasy spectrum - Humans, Elves and Dwarfs vs. Orcs, Chaos and Undead.