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So are tomb king being shoehorned in because they the biggest backlash when the models were discontinued? Skaven and undead are scarce, but the tomb king need to go reclaim their Knickknacks

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

caladancid wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away

Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.

Just becuase they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

For people like you GW are literally in a no win situation, whatever they do.

I don't think that is what they (and me) were saying. It IS good that they're getting rules even if they are OOP. It was brought up to refute the argument Cathay and Kislev aren't getting rules on release because they don't have models available yet (which itself was an argument to somehow attempt to justify why a lot of factions were 'too far away' to be included, despite Cathay being included).

 GaroRobe wrote:
So are tomb king being shoehorned in because they the biggest backlash when the models were discontinued? Skaven and undead are scarce, but the tomb king need to go reclaim their Knickknacks

Vampire Courts are "sleeping" because they have no power because all the von Carsteins are defeated but those sleepy Pharaohs and their Undead Armies from far far away Khemri and their ancient dusty range are all in.

Also Chaos is sleeping too, because powerless like the Vampires but because Chaos is Chaos so Chaos is also all in...

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

caladancid wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away

Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.

Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.

Edit: typos

I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.

More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.

I understand it from a business perspective. Ogres, Skaven, lizardmen and dark elves could have all pulled 'double duty' in TOW and AoS.

This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.

But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.

Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.

Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases.

 Mallo wrote:
I understand it from a business perspective. Ogres, Skaven, lizardmen and dark elves could have all pulled 'double duty' in TOW and AoS.

This way, it forces people to buy into two separate ranges if they want to play AND keep up to date with any rules changes/releases. Then when sales drop, they can swop in and 'refresh' those ranges.

But there is no way I could ever sell this game to my gaming group now. Why would any of them want to play this over an older edition of WFB where we have rules for ALL the forces played between us.

Those pity pdfs they put out will likely last as long as the AoS legends ones did, or the original necromunda gang. And that's before you have 'official only' folk only wanting to play people with currently sold rules.

Meh. I never expected for the new game to actually cater to me but I didn't think GW would find a way to actively sell me on finishing up buying the last couple of battletomes I need for 6th Ed. At this point, I see it nothing more than a 'made to order' run on those armies that are getting releases.

Not sure if this is true. I feel like the Warhammer fantasy crowd and age of sigmar don't overlap that much. By bringing back every army, and including square bases with the new aos 'remake' models, you'd get people to buy them that normally wouldn't have a reason to

What a shambles. As if blowing the world up wasn’t bad enough, now this half assed cash in is really gonna stomp on its ashes.

How a company that has the balls to charge nearly fifty quid for a box of centigors doesn’t have the guts to cancel this clearly unloved, rapidly diminishing project I have no idea.

Just release classic kits in waves if you want to milk the old fans a bit, GW. They’ll probs sell better that way than through whatever weird experiment this is.

caladancid wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

caladancid wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Warhammer Fest already said "in the far future"

why should GW add rules for them in the beginning with the model release being years away

Good thing they are adding rules for all those Chaos Dwarf models that exist right? I will get right on the website and buy them. Come on, don't defend the indefensible.

Just because they can't be purchased anymore doesn't mean that they stop "existing".

GW providing rules for OOP models is a good thing, yet you are trying to turn it into the opposite.

For people like you, GW are literally in a no-win situation, whatever they do.

Edit: typos

I am not sure what you are reading into my post. I am saying that the argument about rules for Kislev and Kislev models doesn't hold water when they are releasing rules for Chaos Dwarves who also don't have models. If you really want to make that point, at least find someone who is talking about the same thing.

More proof that the renders they showed were from Total War, and thats not a great look.

Sorry, my bad, I misunderstood

Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

Nothing wrong with casting a critical eye over releases. If you're a Vampire Counts guy who has been excited for the re-release, it isn't unreasonable to be disappointed your army won't be supported.

Also if you are invested in WHFB being released, it's reasonable to want to see it done in a 'good way' (and you may disagree with what would be a good way, but it's a legitimate opinion).

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

Yep, exactly this. No one can find anything problematic unless they can never be satisfied.
Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.
That's just the 'community' being sour.

So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well kislev was part of empire at one time. Could be part here too.

Was it - when was that?

That i can't tell when they last were but one part i'm 100% sure is 5th ed kislev had units in empire book.

Would help resource wise as less kits needed than stand alone book that needs enough units to be viable.

Not saying that's what happens(could just be later release) but optiyn is there.

Ah no - they are long term allies so they were included as units you could take representing the long standing alliance.

As far as I know since the time of Sigmar, the people that inhabited Kislev have been independant - although Simgar almost wiped out the Roppsmen in an campain of brutal vengance whilst under the influence of the Crown of Nagash.

Yea? I'm not talking about fluff but rules.

Are you claiming kislev units not been part of empire book before? If yes you are lving. If not then you agree with me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?

If done right, the rules for Empire should cover Border Princes. Whether it will be done right is a different question.

Shame they ruled out Tilea earlier, since that's also in the region. But with Dogs of War so tied to characters and regiments of renown from a couple of centuries later, and GW's fetish for having unit entries tied to specific model kits, I guess that was a given.

Voss wrote:

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.

What are you referring to with these?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So... no rules for the Border Princes, but... the game is set there?

Obviously. That's why we got a brief history of Bretonnian dukedoms and empire provinces in past diaries.
Kislev and Cathay and maps with vampire nests.

It all just makes sense.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Voss wrote:

 stahly wrote:
Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.

Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.

Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.

Nevermind that this very obviously doesn't match up with the previous dev diaries, leaves out things that were hyped up before, and pulls back on implied promises.

What are you referring to with these?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

Just the link titles say a lot. There are more as well, if you want to dig. They spent an inordinate amount of time mapping and describing Bretonnia and the Empire for places the game isn't going to be. But of course it was always definitely intended this way, right?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.

No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.

Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not

As is game is shaping up as expected.

I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.

Today? Not so much I guess?

So no Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms?
That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.

I suppose that's my 2nd goodbye to the Old World.

Voss wrote:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

And where for example they said kislev is out first wave?

Nowhere.

If you decide you know better than gw then that's your mistake.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.

If it's plastic yeah same here. Resin not so much.

caladancid wrote:
I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.

Today? Not so much I guess?

And gw has said they don't release?

If you assumed they　come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.

Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.

tneva82 wrote:

Voss wrote:


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/11/old-world-development-diary-explore-the-war-torn-lands-of-the-world-that-was/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/21/square-bases-and-kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered/

And where for example they said kislev is out first wave?

Nowhere.

If you decide you know better than gw then that's your mistake.

Your observations are useless.

Where did _I_ say 'they said kislev is out first wave?'

If you didn't think Kislev was relevant for the game despite "kislev-ascendant-see-your-questions-about-warhammer-the-old-world-answered " then I can not ever understand your thought process, and there isn't any reason for you to reply to me ever.

I'm usually not one to cry wolf over everything GW does - but as these releases are meant to build hype, it really feels like one step forward and two steps back.

Ignoring what we have learned in more recent times, a focused release would have made sense to me. Back when first announced I expected a boring Empire vs Chaos box and release - maybe followed by Dwarfs and O&Gs. All new models. If it isn't dead on arrival, make more like usual.

But instead we are told 9 factions are getting "some shiny new miniatures that will accompany the return of many classic kits."

To my mind 9 is far too many to be "focused". And if we are talking about mainly old kits plus a couple of forgeworld characters, why not include the other few factions cut out? If we are talking more conventional support - then if say Wood Elves get their new minis circa 2026, are GW terrified people might hope to see Skaven or Dark Elves some time in 2027?

Basically I don't understand what GW are doing with this release. So I am left wondering if this is a confused cash grab aimed at old gamers who have some nostalgia for 20+ year old kits.

tneva82 wrote:

caladancid wrote:
I thought I would take a trip back to the bad old days of 2020 and 2021. At some point Kislev was planned, to include alleged models in development, and was part of the map.

Today? Not so much I guess?

And gw has said they don't release?

If you assumed they　come out right away that was your assumption. Not what gw said.

Don't trv to assume you know more than what gw tells.

I think you should just stop.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I feel like this is utterly the wrong move, shows they have no idea what they're actually doing, and makes me have even less faith in the game.

No. Your opinion is they don't have idea.

Guess what? You aren't the one with authority to decide do they have idea or not

As is game is shaping up as expected.

What as asinine response. You seem to have missed the first two words where I said its my feelings on the matter.

You aren't the the one with authority to decide if the game is shaping up as expected or not

Fellas (and ladies that might happen to be reading) this is soul crushing for me...5 out of my 7 armies (my 8th is high elves all on sprues thank God) will get legends treatment and not be part of the game.

This makes me seriously question my commitment to this game now, it's one thing to not initially support all of the factions out of the gate and gauge if this will be profitable as a product before committing to supporting the rest of the range. It's another thing to flat out indicate that for lore reasons they won't be included at all in the game.

What a bummer.

My impression is GW think this is going to be a big game release and thus they've shifted from adding new factions with fewer models to adding old factions in greater numbers which they can bulk out because they've already got a lot of the moulds ready to go from before.

They are also likely getting a LOT of interest from people who have old armies (eg TK to name but one) who want to expand those forces and get them playing again.

Kislev were old and niche at their time; whilst Cathay is totally fresh. So GW might not feel as much pressure from marketing for them compared to the people likely screaming at them for TK to return or Brets or such.



So perhaps the plan has changed and we will see the old armies take the lead at the launch with newer forces coming a little later. I doubt GW threw all the Cathay and Kislev stuff out the window.

Plus we honestly don't know what the release windows are or what its going to roll out like.

Everyone whinging over Kislev (and to a lesser extent Cathay) - it's clear that today's article just dealt with the existing 8e armies. I would expect to see Kislev pop up in year 2 or 3 of the game if it's successful under a new supplement. Hell I wouldn't even be surprised if they're in the launch books and just haven't been mentioned in this article because they're not an 8e army and GW want to market them separately.

GW have already said Kislev is coming, we've had previews of them and Creative Assembly said that GW have designed them - thus one of the reasons why they ended up in TWW3.

Read between the lines, it's not tough.

 Grinshanks wrote:

"Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos Dwarfs and Ogre Kingdoms are all based far from the Old World"
"Anyway here is the Cathay army"
Make it make sense!

Considering theres zero mention of Cathay being an included army at this point?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/18/grand-cathay-is-mapped-for-the-first-time-in-warhammer-the-old-world/
"Cathay will also be coming to the tabletop in the upcoming Warhammer: The Old World."
Unless you are saying that they are stealth dropping Cathay and Kislev from The Old World, the official stance is they 'will' be in the Old World.
The reasoning that the other factions are too far away in this article still doesn't make any sense.

My point is that within the context of todays article, Cathay aren't coming. Assuming Cathay hasn't been shitcanned, the implication you can take away from this is that todays article is not complete nor binding, and that Cathay, Dark Elves, etc. could feasibly become "featured armies" or whatever the jargon is at a later date.

Voss wrote:

----
Anyway, after all the buildup about bretonnia, kislev and the empire and whatever (3 emperors, siege of prague, vampire wars) this deals with... nothing.
Just pokey battles in Neutral Land against rabble and Khemri. And, inexplicably, chaos warriors and elves anyway.
Exciting!
Three game designers diverged in a wood and the compromise was this, was it?

At Warhammer Fest they did say that the Three Emperors narrative would not be explored on launch, and that they would be focusing the initial release on getting out rules for peoples existing collections, etc. It seems they went with the "Border Princes" as a sort of "blank slate" setting/narrative to enable this for the first, I dunno 6 months? Year? 3 Years? after launch, and THEN they will get into the "new stuff" with Three Emperors lore and Kislev, and all the other gak.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

This should have been the start - these armies initially - but others are still involved lore wise and will be built up to them at a later date. But no, that's not what's going on here. They're instead all just "not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World" with a lore excuse not to have them appear properly, they're just not going to be there beyond lip service "legacy rules". So this isn't just the starting point, this is just the game. That's it.

It's not a return to the WHFB setting with a Horus Heresy Style progression that'll develop over time and feature different parts of the lore as it should have been, it's confining things to a specific area of the setting, at a specific time, and a few specific races, not as a starting point but overall, so if you care about anything else? Too bad, they've decided the rest doesn't matter and won't be part of it.

It shows a lack of commitment, a lack of a long-term plan, and just a disregard for it overall.

"I told you so". I mean, I think you're going too far in the wrong direction, unless they completely changed all their plans they teased from the past couple years, it seems that its a game designed to grow and evolve over time, given the promises of Kislev and Cathay in the future, but from the beginning theres been quite a few of us saying (and being shouted down by naysayers) that the community should curb its expectations and that it wasn't a coincidence that the game is called "The Old World" and basically the first actual thing they showed us (after the logo) was a map of the literal continent of The Old World and not much else. I expect some of those other factions to make a comeback, along with new ones, but it seems clear that they regard factions like the Ogres and Lizardmen to now be the provenance of Age of Sigmar and don't feel obligated to heavily explore them more in the-world-that-was. Doesn't mean they won't ever get attention, but safe to say they are lower in priority and they have a lot more interest in fleshing out other aspects of the setting that aren't redundant to their current flagship fantasy IP.

James12345 wrote:
What the hell has been happening with development of this game? 4 years plus and all we really know is that some old models are coming back and a few new plastic units and character models from forgeworld. What happened to that Kislev army they showed in full ages ago? Or Cathay? How will they fit into the "narrative" they're trying to tell?

For the amount of time it's taken them I would have liked for at least 2 fully redone armies and a proper starter set

NGL - this does seem like either a massive misstep in marketing or the result of a very troubled development cycle, etc. that has caused them to change their plans several times while they were right in the middle of it. Hard to tell which, maybe both. The messaging behind the game has been disjointed/inconsistent/poor from the start. Ex - if they previously hinted/outright stated that Kislev and/or Cathay were to be included, why not mention that anywhere in this article? Surely they would know that people are dumb and short-sighted and will not remember articles put out 2 years ago or will assume that lack of continued mention of it means its no longer happening, etc. A simple line to the effect of "long term, fans of The Old World can expect new armies to join the fray, such as Kislev and Cathay which we have told you previously will be joining the fight on a tabletop near you!" would have done absolute wonders, no? Likewise, why did they tell us at Warhammer Fest that the release plans for the game were to focus on getting content out for legacy armies and then focusing on the new narrative, but not mention that in this article nor any of the other articles released on Warcom? Do they assume that we all know what was said at one specific seminar attended by just a few hundred people a few weeks ago? Not everyone follows rumormongers on Twitter and Facebook and will be familiar with those details - also those details are coming at us through filter and interpretation and might not be 100% accurate either.

In any case, to me it seems clear that things have not gone smoothly behind the scenes, with how long this has taken and how little they actually have to show for it. The fact that they seem to be launching the game with legacy kits instead of a whole new model range (which they seem to be promising/implying will be coming later on in the games development) seems to be a big giveaway that major decisions were made to move TOW in a direction other than what was originally planned at the very start when it was revealed to us,a nd the production timeline as a result is not keeping pace with their release timeline. My guess is that they were originally intending to launch with all-new armies and models and were going to leave the legacy stuff behind or circle to some of it later, but based on community feedback (and/or focus group testing) and kvetching they realised that would be unpopular, so instead they are trying to appease the existing "core" community" to some extent by bringing forward legacy rules first and THEN circling around to the new stuff.