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2023/05/23 22:38:29
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
2023/05/11 22:48:05
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
The clarity, at long last, is refreshing in terms of what factions will be 'playable' and what factions won't be present narratively and likely therefore wont get any model support.
We can finally put a few things to bed in that regard at least.
2023/05/23 22:52:41
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.
It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.
Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.
I think you’re reading into it too much. Even back at the Cathay teases it implied waves, saying they would be there eventually but not on release.
On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion. So IMO an explicit statement of ‘these races are connected to Asavar Kul’s invasion’ is definitely a hint they may show up later.
Tyel wrote:
Paymaster Games wrote: This is exactly my point. In order for the storyline to move forward, Kislev will have to be introduced. Sooner as opposed to later. I would not surprised if Kislev shows up within a year of the initial release.
Why?
I mean if its narrative led, we don't need to get to Praag until the end of things.
I think this could well be like "Horus Heresy I", "Horus Heresy II", "Horus Heresy III" etc.
They've planned out say the first 2-3 books and it will cover era-valid army lists for the 9 factions. Everyone outside can get stuffed.
That sounds silly - but then Xenos could have easily been brought into HH but they never did because they didn't want to.
We might not see Kislev until "TOW: Siege of Praag" coming to a store near you circa 2030.
IMO different waves will probably be different theatres and times within the window.
So perhaps 1-2 years for this initial release ‘welcome back to TOW and all the ranges we previously chopped’
Next phase probably something further north with Kislev.
Then probably Cathay’s Northern border (like TW:WH3’s RoC map’s Cathay section). Maybe Ogres and/or Chaos Dwarfs will come back here?
Then a different vignette- maybe something else new.
Etc
2023/05/23 22:59:08
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
BertBert wrote: I'm a bit surprised to see wood elves in there, but I don't hate it. Start with a smaller roster of supported factions and expand down the line. At least we are getting some solid info this time around.
They're smack bang in the middle of everything between the Brets and the Empire. It would be weird to not have them there.
Think of the big map from Total War Warhammer III. The Dark Lands were essentially this big empty "watch this space" for ages with a few random Orc tribes in there until the Chaos Dwarf DLC hit, then suddenly the entire area was filled with the faction that should be there. Can you imagine Athel Loren just being empty?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/23 23:04:49
Also worth remembering that the Wood Elves also have have a major presence in the actual Empire in Laurelorn Forest where there is even a proper city - Tor Lithanel. The Eonir even march on on Salzenmund in 2168 IC, besieging it until the Baron begs for forgiveness.
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
7. These are the armies that'll have the least crossover in AoS and need the most models to round out their lines. Models with 90% of their lines (skaven, lizards, ogres, dark elves) make total sense to leave out of the initial waves.
I think we'll see it start and as the narrative expands they'll add factions. They need this to go somewhere and that's the easiest way. Stories told around 2 factions with an existing one and a new one released and incorporated into the game.
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
It literally does though…
This week we wanted to take a look at which factions will feature most prominently in the game.
…
Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes
…
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements.
Emphasis mine.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
No, it doesn't. It says the Border Prince stuff is the first wave with the initial books are focusing on that, with those 9 armies being the focus even in expansions/supplements.
It then outright says the game itself will consist of those 9 armies and the rest aren't part of it beyond those free rules. Not just for the first wave, but they aren't part of the "narrative for The Old World" itself.
Certain factions people remember from Warhammer Fantasy Battles are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World, but will be provided with rules at the launch of the game.
Not just the initial launch. What they're doing with The Old World overall doesn't feature them. The Old World as a game/project, doesn't involve those other armies.
Those last few quotes/paragraphs of the article aren't saying they're coming eventually. It's from a lore perspective. It's the lore reason they aren't part of this game, and what eventually gets them to appear again - it's not saying that is what's coming.
saying they would be there eventually but not on release.
On the last point, they’ve said previously that the aim is to work up to Asavar Kul’s invasion.
A quote for either of those things would be helpful. I don't remember either of those being stated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/24 15:20:18
2023/05/23 23:10:58
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written.
2023/05/23 23:52:11
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
Why do you assume that this is DOA?
It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place. The first wave will apparently consist of old plastics that weren’t selling in 2010 prices and halfhearted Forgeworld resins. The rules will doubtlessly be divisive, unless they are universally considered awful. Whoever is marketing TOW is fudging up royal. Upper management is regaining its reputation for unreasonable expectations and demands. Each year sees less expendable income for 90% of the market. Put it all together, and this looks like a turkey.
Will confess that due to the sheer length of time and infrequency of updates, I had forgot all about the previous previews of the Kislev stuff. Now I think of it, they split the community into two camps. Those who found them a bit too AoS, and those who thought they were fine.
I wonder if the reaction is what has made GW shelf them, and instead focus more on this game being a soft reboot of WFB as it stood (miniature wise) at the end of 8th? There does seem to be a marked difference in the updates, with the more recent ones feeling a lot more like the old WFB we knew and loved, and less a new take on WFB. Either way, the news that we are getting 9 full factions at launch, and 7 legacy factions pdf's from day one.
The only factions that won't be playable seem to be Chaos Daemons (which they explain why), Dogs of War, and Kislev... who may or may not be in the Empire of Man list.
What I am interested in knowing is whether the Empire of Man list is going to reflect the old Empire from 5th edition, which could take Ogres, Dwarfs, and Halflings. Or be more like the 6th edition and onwards, which was purely Men. I bet the name is a clue to the direction the design team are going, just would be nice to see the Empire being the Empire I remember from my youth.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/24 00:07:29
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
2023/05/24 00:06:06
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.
I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/24 00:06:37
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2023/05/24 00:13:40
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It sounds like GW is walking back all the promises that made TOW enticing in the first place.
I haven't seen any "walking back all the promises". I have seen a lot of people being upset that the assumptions they themselves made and have presented as "things that were said" aren't present in the actual things GW have said about it.
Kislev and Cathay weren’t promises? Also, who is to blame for so many having “ideas” about what is promised? GW, with their crappy communication. Giving mixed signals and then blaming the customers for their confusion is not a winning strategy. Nor does a product that requires a community to thrive build a community with toxic defenders blaming everyone trying to engage with the product for misunderstanding communiques that were vague at best.
I'd still lay money on Old World ending up as little more than a MtO service for some older kits and a handful of crummy resin characters. Judging by how the more niche Specialist Games have been going, and with such a flimsy idea of what it even *is*, it'll die off almost as soon as it starts - when did you last see a major release for Titanicus? Can you even still *buy* Aeronautica? And those are the best case examples of ToW's future.
Old World has been vaporware from the start. There's nothing of the game to show after some four years, and it's about a decade too late for anyone with any sense to still care. Better rank and file games (like Kings of War, a likely catalyst for ToW's announcement) exist, as do eight different versions of WHFB that are timecapsuled forever. Who in their right mind would pay GW's prices for the barely-existant ToW when those alternatives already exist, accomodating all of your armies rather than an arbitrary nine? Who on earth is trusting GW with anything WHFB related ever again after seeing how shoddily they handle it, both in 2015 and clearly ever since? Don't fall for GW's half-arsed attempt to string people along and sell you the ashes of the Fantasy they burned.
They made their Age of Steaming Goat-Soil bed, they can go and lie in it.
2023/05/24 02:15:58
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
H.B.M.C. wrote: When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.
Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.
The messaging there was a lot more clear.
I'm really not sure at this point whether Kislev/Cathay are coming alongside the old lines being resurrected, whether they're coming at some point in the future, or if they're not currently planned at all.
MalusCalibur wrote: Judging by how the more niche Specialist Games have been going, and with such a flimsy idea of what it even *is*, it'll die off almost as soon as it starts - when did you last see a major release for Titanicus? Can you even still *buy* Aeronautica? And those are the best case examples of ToW's future.
- Necromunda (N17) saw significant releases in 2022 with the massive Ash Wastes box set, Nomads gang, Ridgehauler and vehicle upgrades for three gangs, Squats in plastic for the first time since... they were squatted.
- Aeronautica saw a campaign book, the Custodes aircraft, Aeldari Wraithfighters and Interceptors (both in plastic), and the Necron fliers.
- Titanicus (AT18) did have a smaller release with the Dire Wolf, and some weapon upgrades but it was still something.
Yep, these games obviously died off as soon as they started (which is why they still have new stuff being released four or five years later).
2023/05/24 02:45:50
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
All they had to say in this announcement about factions is:
'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'
Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
So, GW could discuss them for the Old World because both were releasing (though not for the Old World any time soon considering those posts were from 20 and 21). Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World. Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow. Right got it. Great explanation.
2023/05/24 03:14:08
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Hellebore wrote: Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because TWW3 was coming out, and they do contain Kislev and Cathay. It was a rare moment of cross-promotion, where GW could talk about something they were doing in context of a licensed product that was about to come out.
Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all. If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.
[quote=PaymasterThis article was really about which existing factions were being brought into the Old World and not about the new ones due to come out in the future.
Right, because:
These armies will have rules published alongside the launch of the Old World, and will be the pivotal players in the events covered in narrative expansions and supplements
The planned expansions and supplements (which in GW-speak is usually books) will focus on the same 9 armies.
Further..
The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.
Last I checked, Cathay is beyond those very specific borders. Chaos Dwarfs are beyond those borders. Lizardmen, Dark elves, etc. High elves too, but they apparently don't count, because they maybe havean embassy in Marienburg and sometimes talk to the wood elves in this period. There's an extensive campaign (20+ years) against Morghur the Shadowgave in the century leading up to the Siege of Praag, and the high elves help a bit. In fact its one of many things going on in this period (like the Errantry Wars) that are centered in Athel Loren and Bretonnia itself and give them all very solid lore reasons not to be faffing about in the Border Princes...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/24 03:16:08
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/05/24 03:30:43
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
The article literally says that the GAME - not the "first wave" or the "initial narrative", but the *whole thing* - is set AFTER the Vampire Wars and BEFORE the Great War and Siege of Praag (the article literally emphasizes that point on 3 separate occasions), and that the Vampire Counts, amongst others "are not part of the narrative we’re telling with The Old World". You couldn't ask for a more clear cut and straight forward statement that something won't be done if you begged. GW didn't put out a whole ass article explaining what the scope of the game is and incite nerd rage in the process only to do the exact thing they said they wouldn't do a few months later. Let's not continue to shift goalposts and spin TOW into something that it clearly isn't and continue to give people false expectations, let's take GW at their literal fething word and understand that when they say these factions won't see support in the game, they mean it - at least as far as the next 5-10 years are concerned, k?
As far as Kislev is concerned, they don't need to do the Great War and Siege of Praag to insert them into the game. There's plenty of other narrative for them to be involved in. As for "other regions"... we know we're getting Cathay, but there were various fluff hints over the years voa TWW3 development that the forces of Cathay may be narratively coming to the Old World (as in the continent) rather than the other way around. The article is clear that THE GAME is set "firmly" on the Old World continent, bounded "between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east". Again you couldn't ask for a more clear cut definition of what the scope of the product is. They aren't saying this is the "initial narrative" or "the first wave", they are saying this is the whole thing. They even make it a point to say that certain factions are excludes because they are physically too far away to be involved.
Paymaster Games wrote: Thier is likely to be a Vampire Wars source book after the release that go into the Von Carstine's attack on the empire and Lichmaster's raids on the wood elves and Bretonnia.
Anyway it is clear that GW is planning on doing the Great War with Chaos first, so there going to be a Kislev army early on, just not at the release date.
It is very likely that there will be source books for the other regions of the warhammer world. Just not time of release. I do not know what you guys were expecting, but realistic expectations was not it.
As a Dogs of War player my self, I have to figure out what to next. All of you have army books or ravaging hoards lists coming. You all can play when the game is released, even Chaos Dwarfs. I can not. This news has not taken down my excitement for the Old World.
It's not clear. If it was clear then there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
What this article tells us is that, despite us seeing Kislev, Cathay, Vampire Counts icons etc and then being talked about previously, they aren't part of it.
Not just at the start. Not just as the initial release. Not just starting small and expanding it to do the other stuff later. It outright tells us that [/i]this is the scope of "The Old World" project and those other armies, aren't part of it beyond those free rules. This project has turned out to be 9 out of 15 or however many it is armies, in the Old World part of the map, at that specific time, with the rest of the setting "not part of the narrative" for the project and not even a mention of later expanding it to add those later.
We're getting just a chunk of WHFB back for something that for years has been hyped as being along the lines of a return of the setting/game itself.
OK, hold up. The article is explicit about what *isnt* coming to the game, BUT that does not mean that things not on the list are also excluded. The article defines the 9 factions known to be in it as the "Core" factions, which implies the existence of non-core factions.These are the main characters in the story and will be the focus of development of the game, in much the same way that 18 Spave Marine legions are the Core factions and main focus of the Horis Heresy - but that doesn't preclude Mechanicum or Custodes from existing, it just means they don't get as much attention and development as the Space Marine legions. We know we are getting Kislev and Cathay, but they are likely to be one-off releases with limited further support and development beyond their initial release. The 9 core factions can be reasonably expected to see regular updates throughout the life of the project - Kislev might see support through a hypothetical "troll invasion" narrative arc, but then when the narrative moves to the "war of three peninsulas" between Bretonnia, Tilea, and Estalia they won't get any more updates and instead you might see Estalian and Tilean armies and a return of Dogs of War.
In short, the correct interpretation of the article is - if it's one of the 9 "Core" factions, they definitely will be in the game, if it's one of the other factions listed it definitely won't be in the game, if it's not mentioned at all - then it could reasonably exist.
ALSO. It's probably worth mentioning that the exclusion of Vampire Counts or Skaven or whatever doesn't fully exclude related concepts from the game. "Vampire Counts" might not be present, but "the Vampiric Host of Mousillon" or "Zombie Pirates of the Vampire Coast" (for example, not sure if they fit timeline/setting, just illustrating the idea of things that are not Vampire Counts but VC-like if you squint" can be, as they aren't technically traditional "Vampire Counts" armies like we may remember from WHFB and may have different aesthetics and themes, while still being VC adjacent.
Paymaster Games wrote: While most of you are correct that this one article does at point at these armies being the focus at the time of release (per the artical). In previous articles, gw has stated that Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the Old World. So it is fairly east to take them at their word, and the armies will come out in some fashion like narrative source books and all new army books. I am not making anything up. I am using what I know about GW and applying it possible future release. Allot of you have done the same.
No, the article says these armies are outside the scope of *THE GAME* - very literally and exactly so. Nothing there about "at time of release" - you are literally making up and inserting that qualifier yourself where it dies not otherwise exist.
And you are right, GW did say Vampires, Kislev, and others are coming to the game - and this article is consistent with that. Vampires are getting a pdf army list, they are in the game, GW has met the obligation of what they told us they would do (if you go back and look at those past statements you'll actually find them to be consistent with that BTW, they were clear that they would be playable, they didn't really say how or to what extent). Likewise Kislev isn't mentioned in the article at all, which is effectively admission via omission. Unfortunately, your stance otherwise is making stuff up and reading in statements that either don't exist or run directly contrary to explicit statements made. Reading is fundamental, as they say.
You should go read the article again, as in the whole damn thing, and pay very close attention to the wording. It does say that the first wave is narratively focused on the Border Princes, but it does not say that the excluded armies are only out for "the first wave". Instead it says they do not fit the location nor timeline of "THE GAME". Clear as glass. They even go on to explain in pretty deep detail how these factions are all in hiding, nonexistent, or too far away and uninterested in events occurring within the very strictly defined geographic area of THE GAME within the x-hundred year narrative period that THE GAME is set in.
It also hints that Skaven and Daemons, who don’t feature in this initial wave will feature later in the narrative:
The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.
…
When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.
Though it’s also worth noting that, Chaos aside, the races in the initial wave are all ones missing large portions (if not all) of their range in contemporary AoS (and the stamps a few pages back seem to indicate the rest of the current Cities of Sigmar units will switch across soon).
If I told you "this thing is set before this major event", why would you assume that the event is in scope for that thing? They tell you that the game is set in the period BEFORE the Great War and the Siege of Praag no less than 3 separate times in that article. That means the narrative, as far as the game is concerned, will *never* get to the point where Asavar Kul rises, because the narrative scope of the game ends before that occurs.
Other than Chaos Dwarfs, the ones not being focussed on have complete ranges currently sold in AoS, some very recently updated. Therefore they’re not really in need of new/re-released models and indeed buying models for them would be counted as an AoS sale not a TOW sale which is not great for the game’s stats.
The article explicitly states that the new stuff released for these factions in AoS will not be given rules in The Old World, so that kind if pokes a hole in your argument, doesn't it?
Except the wording of this article isn't that this is the initial stuff, it says the [i]game itself won't have Skaven/Dark Elves/Vampire Counts etc as part of what they're doing with it even as it develops through more books and such. Not just at the start, but overall.
The Old World as a project/game is these 9 armies, in the Old World Continent, at that time period.
Has a careful reading of GW's wording ever been a good way to figure out what they mean?
Not to mention that what they might mean with regards to this project clearly being subject to change
It's not a "careful reading" when they outright say it.
It’s hard to discuss with folks when we are now discounting the actual words that were written.
Amen, the copium and denialism is strong with some of these guys. That being said, a few are doing the same by assuming this article precludes Kislev and Cathay - it doesn't.
Hulksmash wrote: People said similar stuff about necromunda and only 4 initial gangs came out. Same with titanicus and just 2 titan frames.
The only "sub" game that might not have performed to expectations is aeronautica but even that has had a ton of expansions and models.
People need to breathe a bit. GW has a really solid track record with their games and support now.
In the case of both Necromunda and Titanicus GW never made any claim that those games would be limited to just the things you indicated. In fact if you go far enough back you find explicit statements and teases that *more* was going to come, and *no* explicit statements about things that are currently included in those games being excluded. Aeronautical Imperialis is the same, they told us how many factions they had planned for release into the game, and to date their releases have remained consistent with that statement. Until they add Chaos or tyranids (or any other factions currently without minis and rules) they are consistent with what they communicated - although even then they qualified the faction count was what they had planned "currently", implying the possibility of more later. No such qualifications exists here.
H.B.M.C. wrote: When Total War Warhammer came out there was a promise that we'd eventually get everyone. Took a while, but they showed up.
Didn't abandon the game because Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms weren't available right away.
Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.
Hellebore wrote: All they had to say in this announcement about factions is:
'The two factions we've discussed heavily in our TOW coverage, Kislev and Cathay, will be showing up full steam in the near future after we cover all the existing ones.'
Or something like that. They literally left out two factions they were pushing when discussing factions. That's a pretty significant mixed message
Because they aren't entirely relevant to the subject of the article, which is the core factions of the game which will see primary and continued support, as well as the status of the other old WHFB factions, which Cathay never was and Kislev only kind of vaguely was at one small point in the games past. Also as we learned at Warhammer Fest they are not part of the initial release of the game, but presumably will make their way in sometime later. "Admission by ommission" - they aren't mentioned, doesn't mean they aren't included, they just aren't "core" and not part of the initial release, thus they will need to wait until their part in the narrative becomes rrelevant. No sense really bringing them up when they are still in development and probably months or years behind the games launch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/24 03:34:49
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/05/24 03:39:34
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World. Plastic Bret and TK p.19!
I kind of err on the side that suggests a more limited set of old world powers for the game, potentially expanding into *new* factions like Kislev and Cathay. (and maybe one day my beloved Tilea. *cough*fat chance*cough*)
My reasoning for this is that the article states that they aren't looking to release rules for age of sigmar stuff, so that would *seem* to put a big X over some of the new lizardman stuff... maybe?
Voss wrote: Right, but... it now looks like there's no cross promotion at all.
Well of course not. GW never misses and opportunity to miss an opportunity, and the opportunities they miss the most often are cross-promotional activities (hence why I said a "rare" example of cross-promotion). The fact that they've managed to let TWW1, 2 and 3 come out with nary a tie-in miniature or campaign is testament to how bad they are at this.
Voss wrote: If Kislev and Cathay ever do happen, it will be years after TW3 came out. Possibly even after it stops getting content. IF they happen.
"If they happen". Where's this doom and gloom coming from. Why are you immediately assuming that this whole project is DoA?
Voss wrote: Where do you see the promise that The Old World will also eventually see support for everyone? This article is basically the opposite of that - you'll get your pdf so you can play, but that's the extent of the support those factions will be getting, with essentially a promise that those factions will not be touched again because they aren't the Old World enough for this specific time and place in the Old World.
Assuming that all The Old World is, and that it will never expand ever. They're about to release a whole new range of Lizardmen in a week's time. You think there isn't a place in the future for Lizardmen to "invade" the old world, or for a "Rumble in the Jungle" expansion for TOW that includes Lizzies, some Skaven, Empire colinists and, hell, Dark Elves coming down south from Naggaroth?
Again, why the assumption that this is all there is, and that it's doomed to failure?
caladancid wrote: Now that they have released in total war, GW cannot discuss them any longer for the Old World.
Whoever said that they can't discuss it?
caladancid wrote: Can't even say, Kislev and Cathay are coming soon, coming later, or coming tomorrow.
While they don’t mention excluding Kislev and Cathay, they conspicuously left them out of the factions included as well. My $5 is on GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: While they don’t mention excluding Kislev and Cathay, they conspicuously left them out of the factions included as well.
They included those that had rules prior to them killing WFB. Kislev didn't have much, and Cathay had nothing. They're hardly about to say that they'll put put PDFs for Cathay when TOW drops... Cathay don't have miniatures!!!
Since then we know they've written army books for both (or at least Cathay) because they weren't going to let CA define what Cathay was, so did it themselves. Given the geographical focus of TOW, is it any wonder Cathay isn't involved at this stage?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My $5 is on GW quietly dropping them (or pushing them back beyond 2025 at the earliest) and not explicitly dropping them in the hopes of avoiding backlash.
Why would you assume that at all?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/24 04:50:19
Sweet Asuryan, the negativity and hyperbole of some of you...
Gimgamgoo wrote:So no Vampire Counts, Dark Elves, Lizardmen or Ogre Kingdoms?
That's zapped all interest I had in the rebirth of the game. I'll stick with KoW, although I may look into some of the orc models if anything from the old style is released.
I suppose that's my 2nd goodbye to the Old World.
Literally playable in the game. Though if you want to rage quit before it even starts because you aren't getting a hard back, then I guess the rest of the player base dodged a bullet...
Vulcan wrote:
stahly wrote: Oh wow, the Fantasy / Old World community must be a quite sour place.
Instead of a rehash of the old fluff you get a new setting / time period that hasn't been explored before, with new fleshed out lore. The commitment to support at least 9 classic ranges with new models, incl. the revival of two fan-favourite (but never high selling) ranges with Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. Rules for all of the other classic ranges. We know Kislev is on the horizon with a brand new range.
Sorry, I can't see the problem here. Seems like some people can never be satisfied.
Hard to be satisfied when your three main armies (Dark Elves, Skaven, and Lizardmen) just effectively got Squatted. Yeah, I can still use them in the game for the moment, but my feelings toward TOW is rapidly becoming 'Why bother?'
Having rules isn't "squatted". Christ...
H.B.M.C. wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’ll bet $5 this won’t get more than one real wave. At least not by 2025.
Why do you assume that this is DOA?
Because it has to be. Ever since this was announced this HAD to be a failure. The same people who were on here assuring us that squares weren't coming back, that this was simply going to be AOS Apocalypse style, that this was going to be Warmaster rereleased, and every other nonsense thing that essentially screamed "Play AOS because we're piss scared that we're about to lose a massive chunk of our player base!!!!" are the same people who are continuing to gak talk everything about this project the second it's announced.
As far as the factions getting a Ravening Hordes "get you by " pdf? Here's a thought that apparently nobody considered...
Warhammer: Lustria
A second set of releases later down the line which delves into the Skaven/Lizardmen battles as well as the Vampire Coast AND the Dark Elf raids at the time. Someone who gives far more of a gak about the lore can even look up and see where The Fall of Chaqua fits into this timeframe.
