Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors. Pre orders. p.280.

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**chaos0xomega**

Mozzamanx wrote:
I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

These are clearly the legacy/"legends" index style armies that will be available upon launch so players can use their existing collections, rather than the new armies they will be updating as part of the continued development and support of the game.

**lord_blackfang**

Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

Witchfate Tor, Dreadstone Blight, Deathknell Watch

**Skywave**

I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

**Grail Seeker**

Mr Morden wrote:

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

**Tsagualsa**

Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

Imho the best version was the one that was published in WD during 6th edition as 'More interactive magic' where you could add additional power/dispel dice if you succeeded and the enemy succeeded in dispelling; that got the right tug-of-war feeling without being overly complicated. It also produced memorable moments of your scroll caddy goading the enemy wizard lord into overextending into a disastrous mishap roll

**Geifer**

Queektail wrote:
I admit the negativity on display is starting to get a bit irritating now, especially as we don't know all that much about rules, release date, etc. I'd much rather see positive discussion rather than all the doom and gloom.

Yeah, it's not great, but as an early critic of GW's marketing approach I do find it fascinating to see just how much hostility GW manages to foster with the way they're doing things.

Platuan4th wrote:
Geifer wrote:

I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

I liked the magic phase, by and large. That always was an entertaining part of our games. Certainly in need of tweaks, but... well, we have no real idea how dropping it actually turns out, but it does feel excessive if it follows 40k 10th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter) sensibilities.

Only thing that I immediately thought it might prevent:

Me: I'd like to use my Casket...
My opponent: *pulls out Scroll of Nope* I'm sure you would.

**Mr Morden**

Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

I hated the number of games decided by a single casting....

**Albertorius**

KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

That was cool. And really cumbersome ^^

**kodos**

from the latest annual report:

We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The
Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue
in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the w

"soon" can mean a lot here but I would at least expect something until the next years report

**Sathrut**

Geifer wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Geifer wrote:

I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

Many people seem to assume that all returning kits will be available at launch, alongside new resin/plastic kits. Given the status of TOW as a specialist game, and the sheer number of returning kits, I'd be surprised if it doesn't work like MESBG. I can't see how it could work otherwise.

**Mozzamanx**

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?

**Gert**

Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

**Mr Morden**

Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

**Tsagualsa**

Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.

**Platuan4th**

Mr Morden wrote:
Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

Yeah, multiple timelines and universes have been part of WHFB for a long time: the original ending for Enemy Within, the original plan for Tamurkhan, the bubble universes shown in Giantslayer, etc.

**Tamereth**

Teclis slumps to the ground, sweating from the strain of his vision quest.

"we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times.

**Just Tony**

Mr Morden wrote:
Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.

**Mr Morden**

Just Tony wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.

Maybe - but then they should actually support the "new" older in time setting - tell us about it...make us want to know more....

I don't get them - they have tomb kings in AOS lore, are bringing them back for the Old World but don't want to sell them for both systems? As long as the models sell - its good?

Same with Cathay and Kislev models - they would be fine in AOS....

But instead they want to split resources....

Tamereth wrote:
Teclis slumps to the ground, sweating from the strain of his vision quest.

"we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times.

Teclis considers if the best move is to trust in Mannfred doing the right thing whilst sending his niece to him to be tortured and sacrificed and goes...no probably not. Lets just chop that specific vampire up and see what else we can do...

**RustyNumber**

Love the useless semantics of lore discussions - Company will do whatever they want with the fluff to suit their business plans.

I hope that magic still has the push/pull element of dispell dice etc. I expect we'll just use power dice across a whole turn, like a turn by turn form of command points.

I hope the images they shared represent unit sizes. 50+ units may look cool but they're expensive, time consuming to paint and don't represent "realism" of ranked combat any more than a unit of 15 does. To my mind each model has to represent 20 individuals or so to reflect an actual melee era battle.

**insaniak**

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If that had been their goal, it failed right off the bat by rebasing everything.

It wasn't really the goal, though. The short term goal was (IMO) merely to bring back those Fantasy players who don't like AoS. The long term goal is to sell them new models, because that's the ultimate goal of every GW game. I would expect that any anachronisms in the initial range will eventually be replaced with more appropriate new (and more expensive) models.

Speaking of rebasing, that photo confirms for me that moving to larger bases is largely a mistake. Most of those units look way too spread out. I'll be sticking to 20mm for my human and smaller models.

**.Mikes.**

Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Spoiler:

There, sorted.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.

**insaniak**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.

Indeed, in a world where both AoS and Bloodbowl exist, it wouldn't be hard to have WHFB in another separate timeline.

I'm not sure it's really necessary, but it would have been a viable option.

**NinthMusketeer**

I recall one of the preview articles laying out pretty explicitly that they weren't going to touch the End Times at all? It read to me like they were pretty definitively trying to shut down talk of alternate-timeline stuff. Could be misremembering though.

**BobtheInquisitor**

NinthMusketeer wrote:
I recall one of the preview articles laying out pretty explicitly that they weren't going to touch the End Times at all? It read to me like they were pretty definitively trying to shut down talk of alternate-timeline stuff. Could be misremembering though.

Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”

**insaniak**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”

I mean, that logic could be applied to any setting, though. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Every setting has an end date, regardless of whether or not it's been written down. The point of a setting is to give your games some background now, not to ensure the eternal survival of your army's fictional homeland.

**BobtheInquisitor**

An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

I’m also opposed the the very idea of going back in time for a game set in a specific conflict or period. If I was interested in historical gaming, I wouldn’t look to Warhammer Fantasy.

**insaniak**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

Why, though?

I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.

**RustyNumber**

I still think the only reason TOW exists is the insane success of the Total Warhammer PC titles.

**Platuan4th**

RustyNumber wrote:
I still think the only reason TOW exists is the insane success of the Total Warhammer PC titles.

I mean, yes? They pretty much admitted that when they talked about designing TOW Kislev models when they were designing Kislev for TWWIII.