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2023/10/15 15:21:26
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
frankelee wrote: I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.
They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.
Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.
Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.
No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.
So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.
I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore.
frankelee wrote: I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.
They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.
Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.
Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.
No, it absolutely is not.
4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.
The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.
Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.
The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.
Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.
The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.
A unit of Ice Witches wielding magical weapons is perfectly in line with how Kislev lore already was. Those specific elements (Magical Frost Witches with Magical Ice weapons) were definitely already a thing in 2007 at the very least and potentially before (as I didn't do a huge indepth look into it), as the foundations were definitely there before then.
You being unaware of Kislev lore does not make it a retcon.
I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.
But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine.
2023/10/15 15:56:34
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
frankelee wrote: I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.
They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.
Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.
Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.
No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.
So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.
I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore.
frankelee wrote: I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.
They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.
Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.
Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.
No, it absolutely is not.
4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.
The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.
Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.
The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.
Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.
The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.
A unit of Ice Witches wielding magical weapons is perfectly in line with how Kislev lore already was. Those specific elements (Magical Frost Witches with Magical Ice weapons) were definitely already a thing in 2007 at the very least and potentially before (as I didn't do a huge indepth look into it), as the foundations were definitely there before then.
You being unaware of Kislev lore does not make it a retcon.
I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.
It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore.
She's wearing a slightly elaborate set of Siberian/Steppe themed armour (or wherever Kislev is inspired from specifically) with a bit of extra decoration because she's meant to be a fairly high status elite warrior. Nothing about it that come across as "Warcraft" to me in a way that is much more egregious than how some Kislev units had been shown before designs.
Like just look at the guy on the front of the RPG:
Absolutely not grounded overall, they have quite significant elements of outlandish fantasy design.
But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine.
No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.
It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.
And like, you're talking about a setting that has all sorts of weird and magical fantasy elements. Griffons, Unicorns, Dragons, Ghosts, Pegasus, all manner of monsters, magical creatures and other nonsensical things. If that's what you think changes the tone of the setting then that implies that somehow you're oblivious to all that other stuff that already exists in WHFB. It doesn't do anything for the tone of Kislev when they already have Ice Witches who use Ice Weapons and have an important place in mainstream Kislev society, let alone the setting overall.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/10/15 17:16:34
2023/10/15 15:58:16
Subject: Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
frankelee wrote: I guess it probably shouldn't be surprising the Kislev ice guard might be scrapped. It was very not-Warhammer-Fantasy-Battles.
They weren't something pulled out of nowhere that was a sudden change for how Kislev was depicted.
Ice witches wielding magical frost weapons and having an import place in Kislev society is perfectly fitting with their lore.
Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was. And I remember a lot of people on the internet saying it came across as kind of weird and not very Warhammer. And of course those types of Kislev troops weren't models at any point right up through the End Times. But if GeeDubs is hoping to sell the game to middle aged guys with too much disposable income then it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least didn't prioritize stuff that those of us who played in the 90s and 2000s don't recognize as being legitimately within the tone and feel of the setting.
No - this is fitting with lore from the very beginning - mostly initially established by 1st Edition and 2nd WFRP back in the period you are talking about or earlier.
So yes it is perfectly within the setting - always has been.
I have a copy of all the WFRP 1st and 2nd edition books, go ahead a cite where an Amazonian guard of magic ice weapon using warrioresses were a standing force in the Kislev army, lol. It's fine if you like it, it's very odd and outside typical Warhammer lore..
I have them all as well - and as you well know thats not what I said - if you actualy go back and look at your books you will read how important Ice magic and Ice witches are.
I appreciate the extensive look at the material, but again none of it references an Amazonian guard who uses magic ice weapons and wears armor that looks very reminiscent of Warcraft. If someone who knew nothing about Warhammer lore read your description over they'd get a very inaccurate image of what classic Warhammer Fantasy was because it's missing the fact that 95% of it is a more grounded mix of historical and Tolkien fantasy. Sure Kislev has bear riders. Didn't say they shouldn't. Sure their sorceresses can use ice magic and it can have some fun spell descriptions involving ice. It also can blow them up on a (not especially uncommon) poor magic roll. That's all fine, and it's also not at all what was being discussed. Magic is uncommon and dangerous, Warcraft armor hasn't made it to the Old World yet.
But again, if anybody wants to cite the page where we all can read about the Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books, nobody is stopping them. It seems more that you all just like the designs and are trying to over-extend that personal opinion into something more concrete, which you have yet to cite any justification for, so that people can't disagree with you. But you're failing because of course nothing I said was factually incorrect, rather you just aren't happy to hear it. Which is fine
OK seriously? Warhammer is grounded - what complete nonsese - especially Fantasy battles - again actually look at the covers of your books - its armies and mages and dragons clashing in massively over the top battles - now i get YOU might want Warhammer to be about the Sewer Watch but Fantasy battle is absolutely not.
There are plenty of examples shown above by other for your "Cite me" obession- just read the actual lore mate.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
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Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Anyone saying that WHFB was based in Tolkien fantasy is automatically wrong. The elements borrowed from Moorcock are far more obvious and important to the setting, and Moorcock was the anti-Tolkien. Moorcockian fantasy is also way way way more over the top and Kislev fits right in with what's already there.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/15 16:31:49
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
ImAGeek wrote:
I'm still just going to treat this as the biggest MTO run on fantasy models they have done and use it as an excuse to stock up on things I haven't yet paid a fortune for. I really don't see how they can sell this as wargame made for more experienced gamers in the modern market.
You and me both.
F - is the Fire that rains from the skies.
U - for Uranium Bomb!
N - is for No Survivors...
2023/10/15 17:26:18
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore...
No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.
It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.
You're living in your own fantasy world on this one.
So yeah, I believe you believe any of that. But, I also believe you're getting a bit upset and it's clouding you're thinking. My argument didn't change, yours very quickly did. My goalposts didn't move. Yours are currently headed down the highway. Go ahead and cite where these models fit into WFB, that is your essential claim, you have repeatedly failed so far. If you can't do it, well then keep posting to save face by whining about me. You can have the last word.
I have them all as well - and as you well know thats not what I said - if you actualy go back and look at your books you will read how important Ice magic and Ice witches are.
If you believe I don't think Kislev have ice magic than you have misunderstood my intent good sir.
OK seriously? Warhammer is grounded - what complete nonsese - especially Fantasy battles - again actually look at the covers of your books - its armies and mages and dragons clashing in massively over the top battles - now i get YOU might want Warhammer to be about the Sewer Watch but Fantasy battle is absolutely not.
There are plenty of examples shown above by other for your "Cite me" obession- just read the actual lore mate.
That your understanding of Warhammer lore goes as deep as looking at book covers, I can believe. Again, I don't see anything here but angry internet commenting because your opinion was challenged. Okay. You can compete for the last word as well.
chaos0xomega wrote: Anyone saying that WHFB was based in Tolkien fantasy is automatically wrong. The elements borrowed from Moorcock are far more obvious and important to the setting, and Moorcock was the anti-Tolkien. Moorcockian fantasy is also way way way more over the top and Kislev fits right in with what's already there.
You're one of the people whose posts I generally read on thread chaos0xomega, I think you usually have good points, but I find this point simplistic and binary, and not worth debating personally.
K bai!
2023/10/15 17:53:12
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
I don't think it makes much difference whether some elite Kislev women unit's gear is made of ice or iron.
I do however tend to agree with frankelee. If such a unit had been created in 4th-6th, they'd almost certainly just be regular women with conventional weapons - and any superiority would be demonstrated by a slightly upgraded stat line. I.E. kind of grounded. Its later editions where "this unit is magic all of the time" seems to take hold.
2023/10/15 17:57:58
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
It's odd that you go from "It's not in the lore, it's a retcon!" to that complaint instead once you were shown to be wrong about the idea not fitting in with kislev lore...
No one has claimed that there are "Kislev ice-weapon woman guard in WFRP books or WFB army books". That doesn't stop the elements that make up this unit having been present in Kislev lore even in the time period of the 90s/2000s you're on about.
It seems more that you're just moving the goalposts just and using an absurd strawman argument so you can keep refusing to accept things because you don't like the designs and want to complain regardless.
You're living in your own fantasy world on this one.
So yeah, I believe you believe any of that. But, I also believe you're getting a bit upset and it's clouding you're thinking. My argument didn't change, yours very quickly did. My goalposts didn't move. Yours are currently headed down the highway. Go ahead and cite where these models fit into WFB, that is your essential claim, you have repeatedly failed so far. If you can't do it, well then keep posting to save face by whining about me. You can have the last word.
You absolutely did move the goalposts. Here's a quote of your own post for you:
> Sorry guise, but I don't know much about the retcon lore post 6th edition. It very well can be that it fit WFB in 2015, or WFB in 2024, either way it's a very late and significant tonal change from what the game was.
Absurd for you to try to claim you weren't talking about the lore when you outright mention lore as the context for the post.
You haven't even done anything to argue against what I said with it fitting their lore and style. You've just immediately gone to being condescending, rude and straw-manning things.
They fit, as i've said several times now. Their lore matches up with the sort of thing Kislev had before and has been portrayed as for years.
Design wise, there is nothing about them that is any more outlandish than many, many other WHFB things. Even within just Kislev's look, as i gave examples of already.
Go ahead and show where my argument "quickly changed".
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/10/15 18:24:39
2023/10/15 20:11:14
Subject: Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
BrookM wrote: Could you guys use spoiler tags for those posts please?
I don't quite understand why we're discussing Kislev fluff at all given that this is News and Rumours and we haven't heard anything about Kislev for like a year If this was the Epic N&R thread we would have been told to get back on topic even if it WAS discussion pertinent to the upcoming release
2023/10/15 20:36:06
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
Tyel wrote: If such a unit had been created in 4th-6th, they'd almost certainly just be regular women with conventional weapons - and any superiority would be demonstrated by a slightly upgraded stat line.
You understand this is the same time period where GW released Amazons with lasgun staves, right? GW back then was not above an elite unit with magic ice weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/15 20:37:15
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2023/10/16 00:06:03
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
I'm looking forward to a certain section of people lose their over there being women foot knights.
There's very little visual difference between a man and a woman of the same height in most armors. The padding underneath goes a long way toward hiding feminine curves. Unless it's specifically configured to highlight her (ahem) feminine assets or she takes off her helmet, even a pretty busty woman in a breastplate won't be all that obvious.
Consider Eowyn in the LOTR movies. Yes, we know it's her, we recognize her face. But is she not OBVIOUSLY a woman until she takes off her helmet.
So my army features several female knights, even if you can't tell which ones they are, and you can't prove otherwise.
Most of the Riders in the movie were women! It was the only way to get enough skilled horse riders.
Yep. And nobody noticed.
Which makes the whole argument about women in armor pretty silly, in my opinion.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/10/16 00:07:12
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
I don’t have my computer powered up right now to check myself but are foot knights an option in Total war? If so, might give us insight into new units coming in old world?
ToW armies I own:
Empire: 10,000+
Chaos Legions: DoC- 10,000+; WoC- 7,500+; Beastmen- 2,500+; Chaos Dwarves- 3,500+
Unaligned: Ogres- 2,500; Tomb Kings- 3,000
Hotek: Dark Elves- 7,500+; High Elves- 2,500
40k armies I own:
CSM- 25,000+
nathan2004 wrote: I don’t have my computer powered up right now to check myself but are foot knights an option in Total war? If so, might give us insight into new units coming in old world?
No, just “foot squires”.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2023/10/16 00:12:48
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
Lord Damocles wrote: Is that supposed to be a woman? The only thing suggesting that to my eyes is the lack of a handlebar moustache. I assumed that it was just a younger male.
I could see it either way. A bit of green wash on the chin, cheeks, and above the upper lip to simulate stubble and it would look very different. Maybe even just using a slightly darker skin tone could make a big difference.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/10/16 00:22:47
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.
F - is the Fire that rains from the skies.
U - for Uranium Bomb!
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2023/10/16 00:42:12
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.
According to the designers, the model design drives both first and foremost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/16 00:42:30
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2023/10/16 01:02:33
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
I don't think that changes anything for the members of the rose tinted nostalgia brigade. To them, everything nu-GW does is wrong and evil, and everything old-GW did in the past was perfect, and if nu-GW does something that violates their beliefs about what old-GW would have done, then its wrong.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.
Actually the minis drive the lore first and foremost. GW has a model-first process, it goes model -> lore -> rules.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/10/16 03:36:49
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade.
Not really sure why people are thinking that because they've not shown anything already it means they aren't coming
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/16 03:38:28
2023/10/16 04:35:41
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
I think it's interesting that it appears the design philosophy of GW has changed dramatically since a lot of the earlier Bretonnian range was released (duh!). That is to say, I think there used to be more of the people who came into designing WFB from a historical wargaming perspective, like the Perry twins, bringing a somewhat historical perspective and design to the armor and weaponry. For me, the new Bretonnians, particularly the helmets, clearly show the influence that new designers draw from D&D and Warcraft or other fantasy settings in the 2000s, including AoS.
To me, if previous Bretonnians were like 80% 13th century Western European knights and 20% fantasy, these appear more like 50-50%.
Osorios wrote: I think it's interesting that it appears the design philosophy of GW has changed dramatically since a lot of the earlier Bretonnian range was released (duh!). That is to say, I think there used to be more of the people who came into designing WFB from a historical wargaming perspective, like the Perry twins, bringing a somewhat historical perspective and design to the armor and weaponry. For me, the new Bretonnians, particularly the helmets, clearly show the influence that new designers draw from D&D and Warcraft or other fantasy settings in the 2000s, including AoS.
To me, if previous Bretonnians were like 80% 13th century Western European knights and 20% fantasy, these appear more like 50-50%.
The original Bretonnian range was designed for a historical wargame that GW was working on, but when that ended up not being released the moulds were re-purposed for Warhammer Fantasy. Over the years, as models got added to the range, the fantasy aesthetic got strengthened.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/16 07:51:44
2023/10/16 07:48:17
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think what people are forgetting about the Ice Guard is this: If GW didn't want it to exist, it wouldn't exist. CA doesn't just get to invent units themselves. Like all license partners, they have to get everything approved (or simply created by) GW.
So you can say that Ice Guard aren't really part of Kislev, but GW says they are, and that's all there is to it. The buck stops with them.
It's a game first and foremost. The game drives the lore, not the other way around.
Nah. Model designers come up with model. It's tossed to fluff and rule writers with premise "make sure this is mentioned in fluff and has rules"
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2023/10/16 09:46:08
Subject: Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
That sounds believable. They've already got LI stuff in White Dwarf and a lot of models and content on show. So pushing Old World out for LI makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, that all seems plausible enough. Also fits with Valrak's rumours.
I also wonder if the norm will effectively be one new plastic unit, one or two multiuse plastic monsters, and a bunch of resin character models, and then old models. That seems plausible. They could do with a new plastic wyvern for the Orcs for example.
The last big remaining question for me then would be if they really bring back the BFSP Night Goblin kit, or if they just tell you to use the AOS models.
2023/10/16 10:27:00
Subject: Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
Not really anything of interest, and if you already follow any GW game its likely this page is going to have no useful information but I guess its more for people looking up 'the old world' online.
I'd have thought they would have at least sneaked a sneaky reveal to generate a little traffic to the page.
LI taking over the November slot has been going around for a while now so nothing new the February thing is also not new as GW had a mistake after Saturdays stream and posted this bevor deleting it again:
The actually interesting part is the two other paragraphs. The second one is reasonable as Bretonia also got an infantry squad in addition to their leader model but the third paragraph has one part that makes me lean towards it being fake in that it says it will have "a" Starter set. Meanwhile Valrak, who that early next year with Legions Imperialis taking over the November slot rumour originated from, said that there wouldn't be a single classical starter set with both factions but instead both Bretonia and Tomb Kings will get their own "launch sets". I can't remember if those include the rulebook but its clear that it would be two "starter sets" and not just one this way.
Could of course just be that whoever wrote that just wasn't that precise but then again its 4chan so should be taken with salt in the first place
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/16 10:28:17
2023/10/16 10:51:06
Subject: Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
Those rumours from 4chan seem be taken from Hasting's post on War of Sigmar:
Spoiler:
Well, I hear there's only 2 new (plastic) kits for TK, one a hero/lord on chariot, the other a unit of sand mummies (whatever that means).
The (not) starter box (TK v Brets) will drop last week Jan/first week Feb at a cost of 185 gbp. It contains only plastic models, so none of the new resins, old resin/metal minis, although these will launch at around the same time, possibly even the following week/fortnight, along with standalone rulebook and plastics from the not starter box. There will be some "quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.), and in late summer another box of Orcs vs Empire, apparently O&G get one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot) and empire gets 3 plastic kits. There is a new "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, as the first release the components from this bunch will release "soon"(tm) afterwards, along with a couple of NEW resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character
Summary:
TK only receive two new plastic kits: Hero/Lord on chariot, and a unit of "sand mummies"
TK vs Bret (not) starter dropping last week Jan/first week Feb, price will be £185
Will only contain plastic models, none of the new resin/old resin/metal minis
New resin/old resin/metal minis will launch around the same time, possibly the following week/fortnight alongside standalone rulebooks and plastics from the "not starter"
"Quality of life" stuff the following month (plastic templates, dice etc.)
Late summer box of Orcs vs Empire, O&G receive one new plastic kit (possibly boar chariot), Empire 3 plastic kits
New "narrative" book to go alongside these releases, components from this bunch will release "soon" afterwards, along with a couple of new resin pieces for both, one of which is a named Orc character
Hasting also commented "I have heard that the TK chariot is beautiful, and having seen the new Bret stuff I don't doubt that."
Seems plausible. Seeing a new plastic chariot next to the 20+ year old ones will be jarring, especially since the core of the army is going to be based on 20+ year old kits, the same ones that are (one) of the main reasons people never started TK.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/16 10:56:21
2023/10/16 10:58:31
Subject: Re:Warhammer - The Old World news and rumors
Seems very plausible, but if the TK core isn't being updated, that will be very disappointing.
Sucks to be a TK player that wanted new models, but TBH I'm really, really hoping the old troop models remain the same as the old kit. I need hundreds to the old skeletal horses, and if they remake them you can count on them being like modern sculpts with the legs sculpted on.
With the old kits, sure they are very old but it also allows for most of the vampire counts force to be easily available (as long as you are happy to the new AoS stuff in).
I would take it as a bonus if the old TK skeletons and riders are the ones they go with. Happy to see them replaced in the future sure, but for now as this is a half-hearted half-baked release anyway, at least its a 2 for 1 army deal allowing VCs to have some hope of continuing their old armies. We are getting old kits no matter what, might as well be ones that work in our favour.
over there being women foot knights.
