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Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

Sunno wrote:
Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

They could be used for both but I don't think GW wants that to happen. Why sell one model for two systems if you can just sell two models instead. Just look at HH and 40k, nearly all HH models where removed for 10th.

Many AOS models also are covered in stormcast bits or other AOS specific doodads (though the rockgut troggoths are good to go). I dunno if that’s necessarily a deal breaker though, since I imagine a lot of the rereleased empire models will have Karl Franz iconography

 Matrindur wrote:

Sunno wrote:
Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

They could be used for both but I don't think GW wants that to happen. Why sell one model for two systems if you can just sell two models instead. Just look at HH and 40k, nearly all HH models where removed for 10th.

Because I think GW would be hard pressed in many cases to justify making double kits. A night goblin is a night goblin. A vampire skeleton warrior is vampire skeleton warrior. A Skink is a Skink. I put any of those AoS models on a square base it IS a ToW model (and visa-versa of course). I just dont think GW would sell the volumes to justify making two kits in the case of line troops for armies that basically exist in both setting, stupid AoS names not withstanding.

Characters, special units and centrepiece models/monsters could be another matter I grant you.

One might think and yet they removed all the 30k models from 40k to keep those systems apart

You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both

 kodos wrote:
One might think and yet they removed all the 30k models from 40k to keep those systems apart

You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both

Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.

Dudeface wrote:

 kodos wrote:
One might think and yet they removed all the 30k models from 40k to keep those systems apart

You might think it will be a good idea of not having a AoS skeleton kit as well as a TOW skeleton kit
GW thinks it is better to let you by both hence why there is Khemri in one and Vampires in the other game

Same for Goblins, one dedicated for each game so people by both if they want to play both

Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.

I don't expect those to be replaced for TOW. I could see them making a new AoSified goblin kit for Gloomspite gits that doesn't really fit the TOW aesthetic and keep selling the old night golbins for TOW

I had a quick look and there are more than a hundred "AOS" kits currently on sale that was originaly released for WHFB. Surely GW will want to sell these kits for TOW aswell as for AOS? It will also take them a very long time to replace them if that's the plan.

Some form of cross-marketing seems inevitable...

You'll probably notice that most of those kits are for armies that arent' involved in old world.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
You'll probably notice that most of those kits are for armies that arent' involved in old world.

A lot of them are, sure. But there are still plenty of kits for the core factions like Empire, Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins and Chaos.

I think it'll be really interesting to see how this release unfolds. It's a unique release in many ways so I'm not expecting it to follow the usual pattern.

In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?

chaos0xomega wrote:
In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?

Mostly correct although Flagellants date back to the lifetime of Sigmar himself and the steam tanks are created around 2020 so depending on the exact date are about - in fact more of them might still be working. Griffons are likely to have been tamed for a long time.

Dudeface wrote:
Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.

if GW is not doing double factions and having the same in AoS and TOW, either Night Goblins are not in TOW or are gone in AoS by the time O&G get their release in TOW
there are 3 Goblin factions, Wood, Night and Regular Goblins, of which 1 is an AoS faction

depends if GW want a clear cut like with HH and 40k, rather regular Goblins coming back than Night Goblins get re-packed with 2 different bases

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
New vampires? Far too big for WFB. Who knows how much the newer models for ToW will be scaled up though.

Is that Eddie Munster?

chaos0xomega wrote:
In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?

I'm expecting everything to stay for the initial "ravening hordes"-lists phase of the game. What happens next is anyone's guess.

Sunno wrote:
Many of the AoS models could just be used for ToW. It wouldn't surprise me if they just start putting square and round bases in many of the kits and call it a day. Or start doing movements trays with circular insets.

I doubt it. They've confirmed all the factions that have had major aos model revamps (lizardmen, vampire counts etc) won't be supported, so it seems they are drawing distinct lines between the model ranges. Wouldn't be surprised if they bring back the old chaos warrior kit instead of the aos one

 kodos wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Is there any reason to assume night goblins won't be in ToW? Given they're also a decade + year old set of sprues, same for spider riders.

if GW is not doing double factions and having the same in AoS and TOW, either Night Goblins are not in TOW or are gone in AoS by the time O&G get their release in TOW
there are 3 Goblin factions, Wood, Night and Regular Goblins, of which 1 is an AoS faction

depends if GW want a clear cut like with HH and 40k, rather regular Goblins coming back than Night Goblins get re-packed with 2 different bases

Well, the wood (or forest?) goblins are in AoS as the spider goblins or whatever they are called. The spider riders and arachnarok spiders are part of gloomspite gits. So either they pull a cities of sigmar and cull them from the gloomspite faction to port them back to TOW or they aren't part of TOW. likewise the wolf-riding goblins that were recently added to gloomspite are vaguely "regular goblin" in style, so... I dunno.

Personally, I kind of expect them to "fork" the model ranges for Empire/Dwarves/O&G/Chaos (and anything else that was missed). As someone else said, during the "Ravening Hordes" phase where everything is working off of pdf lists or whatever initial army compendium they might have released, I assume the models will continue to pull double duty. Of course things like Seraphon or Ogre Kingdoms which I don't expect to ever get full support in TOW will have to make due with AoS kits or the legacy-WHFB-cum-AoS kits with their pdf lists indefinitely, but I expect that as both games develop we may come to a point where the core factions in TOW that have overlap with AoS have their own separate versions of things. Gloomspite gits have their own "moonclan grots" kit, and TOW Orcs & Goblins have their own separate "nightgoblin cultists" kit or whatever, and that Slaves to Darkness have "Darkoath Chaos Warriors" while TOW has "Norscan Chaos Warriors" or something. Like, I don't expect the current steam tank or Freeguild Marshal on Griffon kits to last in AoS indefinitely, they will eventually be replaced with something, though whether they are replaced with updated versions of themselves or with new iterations on the concept (for example Cogfort and "Freeguild Marshal on a Ghurian Dracogryphe (TM)") is unclear - if its the former then I expect there to be a TOW Steamtank and Empire General on Griffon kit (which are hopefully updated from the current versions, the Griffon kit is fine but the Steam Tank is ancient) and an AOS version of the same. If its the latter then I expect that TOW will get new versions of steam tank and griffon (because its covered in things that say "Karl Franz") in time while AoS goes its own direction.

Some of the new vampires work okay in WHFB. The ones from underworlds are all gorgeous, but all way too big and that mace wielding one is supposed to be the burly large one even within that set, using him as a guide is cherry picking the worst offender. Cado Ezechiar fits into WHFB pretty well. He's standing on a giant tactical tree, but you can clip that away if you wanted to. He is still big, about a head taller than the Isle of Blood elven mage of a similar pose, but he's almost the exact same size as the old Wood Elf Lord. He's on a taller tree than ther WE, but fits better on a 20mm square and he ranks up fine thanks to that tactical tree. Once armies go to 25mm standard bases he'd fit in even better.

Any of the Blood Knights would work fine for a mounted vampire, especially a Blood Dragon line, and I don't own the model, but I suspect the Vampire Lord with bat-hair would fit in without too much work. There's some good conversions out of the new Vampire Blood Bowl team as well. Again, a little big, but Heroes and Lords should stand out a bit from the chaff.

I just hope the rules are decent, my faith in current GW is pretty low now that 10th ed 40K is here.

I realize that a bunch of my armies from the original WaFaBa won't have anything other than a pdf list for their faction. I hope those lists include as much that was part of these armies, across their durations of the Warhammer run. For instance, it would be great if the lizard men had the Dread Saurian, the skaven still had the brood horrors, the high elves had the Merwyrm. Those to me were such fun additions to the armies, it would be nice to still see them included.

I'm most interested to learn about how they are going to handle the Chaos Dwarf list. Not just because they're my favorite old world army, but there are several variations to them over the duration of WaFaBa. I would ultimately love a fusion of the Forgeworld Legion of Azgorh, and the Chaos Dwarf Ravening hordes list, as that would include most of the more modern (circa 90's + = modern to me ) Evil Dwarfs. Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun.

Did they reveal yet whether all base sizes will be upscaled to the next increment or just 20->25mm?

When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?

 Baragash wrote:

Spoiler:

chaos0xomega wrote:
In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?

When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?

Blackpowder was present at Mordheim in 1999-2005, so by the time of the endtimes its been around at least 500 years, so yes will be present in ToW

 Baragash wrote:

Spoiler:

chaos0xomega wrote:
In terms of legacy empire stuff, from what I understand most of it doesn't fit into TOW. IIRC TOW is set pre-steam tanks (I think?), pre magic college (which eliminates luminarks, celestial hurricanums, and battle wizards), and before Magnus the Pious and Grand Theogenist Volkmar the Grim (who started the trend with religious fanaticism in the Empire, and ergo there would be no flagellants in TOW before him). The only kit still for sale that would fit into TOW then would be the Freeguild General on Griffon kit, in theory anyway - the Imperial Zoo won't be founded for another few hundred years and existing fluff was clear that it was Karl Franz who acquired the Griffons for the zoo in the first place, so its entirely possible that they won't be included either.

I can't really comment on the Dwarfs, Orcs & Goblins, and Chaos stuff too much. The dwarf stuff mostly strikes me as things that probably should be included in TOW, though depending on previous fluff I can see the gyrocopter/bomber being excluded or something as being too modern. Otherwise I'm not really sure what other units dwarves had available that they could build an army list around. Orcs and Goblins probably depends on how they want to approach them, there are certainly a number of legacy WHFB kits which were expunged from TOW that could be brought back for TOW exclusively ala Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, though whether thats enough to build a cohesive army is kind of unclear. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take the new orruk ard boyz as a substitute for the black orcs that they replaced, for example, so I expect the old black orc kit to make a comeback. The flipside is that the old night goblin kit is the current gloomspite shoota/stabba kit, I don't see how you have orcs and goblins without what i recall to have been the main goblin unit in the army. As far as chaos warriors are concerned, I half expect them to bring back the old chaos warrior and knight kits for TOW rather than using the new slaves to darkness kits. Even still, like half the StD range is made up of old Chaos Warriors stuff, so I don't know if they are going to cut stuff from the next StD battletome or if the chaos warrior army list in TOW will be smaller and go in a different direction?

When was Blackpowder discovered, because it's been removed each time War of the Beard lists were published (wihch is obviously a lot earlier), and I want to say was not present in Grudge of Drong either, but my memory is a bit hazy on that?

Cathay used it way back before the time of Nagash and exported some to Lahmia to fight him. Dwarfs used it but very carefully sometime later and took along time to approve it for use in the military

For the Empire, I believe its some time around the year 2000 IC. This is because it wasn't there when Vlad took over Drakenhof Castle, but it is there in Mordheim.
For Cathay though, they've had it for thousands of years. They feature in one of the Nagash books when the Tomb Kings were still alive.
Dwarfs I've no idea, but after the War of Vengeance.

I think (hope) they will do whatever they need to in order to have an interesting range of units and functions on the tabletop. I enjoy the WFB fluff but I'll spit in its eye in order to have a variety of interesting and cool black powder weapons. GW has been changing the fluff for so long in order to service the game (or just change it to their whims) that it's always funny when people continue to get bent out of shape because they ignore something that was written in a WD supplement 30 years ago.

ToW isn't set all that long before WHFB 8th, just a couple hundred years. This is a good video covering the expected timeline of ToW. Basing the timeframe on the names and dates in the Warhammer Community articles and maps, ToW takes place between 2201 and 2302. WHFB was early 2500s, The End Times were 2520s. If you're familiar with Feliz and Gotrek novels, Trollslayer begins in 2495.

Remember that Mordheim is set in 2000, so anything in a Mordheim warband list is 200~300 years old by ToW. The Empire definitely has Gunpowder by the time of ToW, and has for a while. No wizards as we know them in WHFB Empire lists, but certainly warrior-priests and self-taught mystics/hedge wizards. The timeline on Warhammer Wiki puts the dwarves giving gunpower to the Empire in 1991

Mozzamanx wrote:
For the Empire, I believe its some time around the year 2000 IC. This is because it wasn't there when Vlad took over Drakenhof Castle, but it is there in Mordheim.

The optional rules for Mordheim specifically state that black powder was still relatively new and experimental to humans of the Empire and, worse, that the supplies in the ruined city were not always the best quality, or even legitimately black powder at all and offered some more detailed misfire rules for guns (left out of the core rules for simplicity’s sake) to represent this.

 skullking wrote:
Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun.

Boar centaurs maybe too? And why you mentioned the daemon ass cannon with a tongue-out emoticon....?

 Kalamadea wrote:
Some of the new vampires work okay in WHFB. The ones from underworlds are all gorgeous, but all way too big and that mace wielding one is supposed to be the burly large one even within that set, using him as a guide is cherry picking the worst offender. Cado Ezechiar fits into WHFB pretty well. He's standing on a giant tactical tree, but you can clip that away if you wanted to. He is still big, about a head taller than the Isle of Blood elven mage of a similar pose, but he's almost the exact same size as the old Wood Elf Lord. He's on a taller tree than ther WE, but fits better on a 20mm square and he ranks up fine thanks to that tactical tree. Once armies go to 25mm standard bases he'd fit in even better.

Any of the Blood Knights would work fine for a mounted vampire, especially a Blood Dragon line, and I don't own the model, but I suspect the Vampire Lord with bat-hair would fit in without too much work. There's some good conversions out of the new Vampire Blood Bowl team as well. Again, a little big, but Heroes and Lords should stand out a bit from the chaff.

I just hope the rules are decent, my faith in current GW is pretty low now that 10th ed 40K is here.

Look, I think a retcon to TOW lore that vampires have whatever gigantism that step-on-me-vampire-lady from Resident Evil has is a valid choice.

 Kalamadea wrote:
ToW isn't set all that long before WHFB 8th, just a couple hundred years. This is a good video covering the expected timeline of ToW. Basing the timeframe on the names and dates in the Warhammer Community articles and maps, ToW takes place between 2201 and 2302. WHFB was early 2500s, The End Times were 2520s. If you're familiar with Feliz and Gotrek novels, Trollslayer begins in 2495.

Remember that Mordheim is set in 2000, so anything in a Mordheim warband list is 200~300 years old by ToW. The Empire definitely has Gunpowder by the time of ToW, and has for a while. No wizards as we know them in WHFB Empire lists, but certainly warrior-priests and self-taught mystics/hedge wizards. The timeline on Warhammer Wiki puts the dwarves giving gunpower to the Empire in 1991

A lot can change in the span of 200-300 years though. Not that much of anything in WHFB necessarily changed in that time, but in terms of human history 200-300 years made the difference between burning wood for heat and light, riding horses for transport, and using bows and arrows for warfare and nuclear power, airplanes, and atomic bombs.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 skullking wrote:
Bonus points if they want to include the 'Realm of Chaos' and older stuff (bazooka, mortar, swivel gun, tower, carts, maybe the ass canon. ) , that would be fun.

Boar centaurs maybe too? And why you mentioned the daemon ass cannon with a tongue-out emoticon....?

The boar centaurs are only featured pushing the carts, and tower, but I'd love to see them as a separate unit also. I used the emoticon, because ass canons are very silly.