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5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

Hellebore wrote:Dwarfs though are getting much better charge support, as is the way with the random dice rolling - Max charge of 9" is triple their move, so it's a 50% greater range. the average rolls are going to slow down elves and speed up dwarfs, but only in charging.

Which feels wrong on every level and why I will not be playing this game. My plus column is that minis will be coming back out. GW will get my money in that respect which means it'll endorse a ruleset I don't endorse, but I had to swallow that pill buying AOS branded WFB models anyway, so I can live with it.

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.

yeah, don't actually use the rules, just line up everything, move it straight forward and start complaining how your hammer units cannot kill the anvil units in a frontal charge without support
(as people also suggest for AoS instead of trying to actually use movement tactics)

light cavalry getting behind the line and having something in the back to catch them is an essential part of any melee heavy game
this is not an issue at all as if a 5 model light cavalry unit can overrun your army, you have done something wrong (and it is neither the opponent being WAAC nor the fault of the rules)

what is a problem, that the random charges are too still too swingy in addition to have the disadvantage of fixed ranges

Infantry is doing 5-10", standard cavalry 9-14" and swift cavakry 10-20"
so instead of placing your cavalry 8,01" away from infantry to get the charge without being charge, you now just do 10,01" and your opponent hoping for you to roll a double/triple 1.

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.

What is exactly WAACy hacky about it? I know we are far from complete rules which may have a lot of things that disallow this (like "no free reform after march" for example), but so far it seems perfectly legal, fair and very fast cavalry-like. And not that different to what we had in 6th (move further but subsequent charge shorter and unreliable)

Cyel wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

Secret tip - Overcome these gameplay hacks by... Not playing with WAAC numpties.

What is exactly WAACy hacky about it? I know we are far from complete rules which may have a lot of things that disallow this (like "no free reform after march" for example), but so far it seems perfectly legal, fair and very fast cavalry-like. And not that different to what we had in 6th (move further but subsequent charge shorter and unreliable)

Remind me what was the average profile of a wolfrider?

Because as memory serves the only thing going for them was the outflanking and the wolfs and that wasn't a lot.

In that scenario i'd be more concerned about barbarian cav, but even with these a semi competent deployment will shut that move down instantly atleast until you managed to break a block to roll up a flank.

Wolf riders, just like every fast cavalry was absolutely crucial in 6th, not because of sheer stats, but incredible utility. Who won the battle of support, won the game almost every time.

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

So fast cavalry used well. If your opponent can't find a way to stop a unit of 5 light cavalry models getting in your flank/rear in 2-3 turns than it's not a rules problem. The rules previewed are looking good. Already a lot better than I expected!

So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions

I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units

 RustyNumber wrote:
I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units

Which is exactly what light cav should be doing - harressing missiles and war machines.

 RustyNumber wrote:
I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units

Unlikely because warmachines are behind the line and a decent volley of any missile unit of factions with warmachines is bound to send the gobbos packing.

Unless we are talking about chaos warriors, in which case the cannon itself will eat the gobbos, or the barbarian cav will. And basically all chaos warriors armies require barbarian cav due to the gaping hole of the roster in order to counter skirms, side charge/support monsters and as cheap shock cav.

Primarily if you get through and charge a bolttrhower etc, then you either broke the enemies line already, in which it would be more usefull to side charge an enemy unit with them to roll up the enemy army or your opponent failed in deployment and positioning/ forgot to keep reserves to plug ranks.


Either Way is indicative of either good play on the goblins side or mistakes on the opponents side. Both of which however highlight the role light cav plays.

 kodos wrote:
So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions

 kodos wrote:
yeah, don't actually use the rules, just line up everything, move it straight forward and start complaining how your hammer units cannot kill the anvil units in a frontal charge without support
(as people also suggest for AoS instead of trying to actually use movement tactics)

light cavalry getting behind the line and having something in the back to catch them is an essential part of any melee heavy game
this is not an issue at all as if a 5 model light cavalry unit can overrun your army, you have done something wrong (and it is neither the opponent being WAAC nor the fault of the rules)

.

Yes, such attitude seems to exist. Interestingly I've only learned that people play like that (using only the most basic part of the toolbox) recently, thanks to YT video battle reports.

I even wrote about my surprise in another thread:

Cyel wrote:



I am wondering if playstyle affects this perception. For example recently I've been surprised to watch some of the 6th edition reports from this channel




and, boy, if you played WFB like that no wonder your opponent having a few inches of charge range advantage made all the difference! To copy my comment from underneath this report:

I have watched a few of these reports already, and the saturation of player agency, interesting, meaningful and non-obvious decisions per unit of gameplay time (or per page of rules) seems abysmal. These blocks just get shuffled forward until they meet what was deployed directly across the battlefield from them and then totally random combat Yhatzee gives some result which tips balance in favour of one of the sides...

My memory tells me that the game was far more strategic than that. Or maybe it's the fact that for some reason you don't use a lot of sacrificial units, especially fast cavalry which can redirect these expensive blocks at unfavourable angles. I remember always playing with 3 min. Wolf Rider units in O&G, 3 min. units of Warhounds inChaos, 3 min. Dire Wolves in Vampires etc. Can't imagine just having nothing to throw away to delay this Black Knight Bus for a turn (or to toy with those Khorne Knights all newbies erroneously thought were awesome because stats ;D)!

I remember using your shooting, magic and support units to kill enemy support units, because with more sacrificial support than your opponent you could control their movement (by baiting or redirecting, or taking a charge and overrun into an anvil and countercharging in a flank). With so little support it really feels like blocks shuffling forward and dice deciding everything...simple, shallow gameplay not justifying dozens of pages of rules and 2+ hours spent doing it.

tneva82 wrote:

Johanxp wrote:
So when we give certain orders we have to change the shape of units by moving the necessary miniatures, one by one? So movement trays become useless?

If so... It sounds tedious.

Changing formation was always a thing in fb. You expected aos like rules?

Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.

To each their own. I’m very impressed by the movement rules, wasn’t expecting this level of complexity and cleanness

Streamlining for streamline sake is the worst thing to have happened to wargaming, I've decided

As an Oldhammer player I like a lot of what I see here.

Open formation was used by beast herds and is in the Ancients battle rules. It usually results in a compromise between skirmish and closed order. Better movement through terrain but only getting a +1 or +2 max rank bonus.

The big thing I saw was counter charge as an optional reaction to being charged. This also was in Ancient battles and quite an interesting change for the game. I would like for all troops to be able to counter charge unless the enemy was several inches faster. I think in Ancients it allowed for cavalry to counter charge only. Many other ancients rules sets allow for infantry to charge each other, although there is little incentive unless they add infantry charge bonuses. In 3rd edition charging units added +1 to the "to hit" roll. So both sides doing this would make for a bloody first round. 2 units of cavalry armed with lances charging would make for a pretty nasty first turn of combat also even without the to hit bonus.

Keep an eye on the combat rules and see if they change "rank bonus" to "infantry rank bonus". That is something really needed.

Movement trays are not a big deal. Put your unit on 2-3 smaller trays to allow for different formations.

The lance formation was called wedge in 3rd edition and usable by any troops. It allowed a unit to attempt to pass through the enemy and emerge from the other side. Very handy if faced with a single rank of enemy troops. I doubt they will bring back that gloriously epic rule from 3rd but one can only hope.

While they are at it perhaps they can bring back the square formation. A hollow block with troops facing in all directions. It can not move but can not be pushed back.

As a true oldhammer fan and player of many years this is getting me interested again.

Johanxp wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Johanxp wrote:
So when we give certain orders we have to change the shape of units by moving the necessary miniatures, one by one? So movement trays become useless?

If so... It sounds tedious.

Changing formation was always a thing in fb. You expected aos like rules?

Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.

Mind you that it's been known for quite a while that GW's stated goal was to make The Old World a mashup of 3rd to 8th ed Fantasy. There may be some streamlining where you may glimpse more modern sensibilities, but the mission statement was to make a game with recognizable, existing mechanics to play on people's nostalgia.

Provided you didn't somehow miss this, there was precious little doubt that The Old World would be based on individual models moving in formation, rather than unchanging blocks.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 RustyNumber wrote:
I took the implication to be you could do it with multiple tiny units, a "homing missile" system against war machines and small ranged units

Which is exactly what light cav should be doing - harressing missiles and war machines.

And getting all hacked and mangled by a Cheeky Chariot!

Though the range of the charge for the Wolf Riders above is off. Max charge reach is 15”.

And five of them flanking a unit unsupported probably isn’t going to achieve a great deal. I’ll still have a static res of +2 from Banner and (presumably until further notice) Outnumber. And that’s assuming enough of the fleabags survive to strip my ranks

The overall point still stands though. Anyone not reacting to such a fast moving flanking unit is asking for a kicking, and shouldn’t complain when they get on.

Though I think I’d use such raw speed to start tackling enemy artillery nice and quickly.

Also, am I going bonkers or did Fast Cavalry used to have a special rule to aid with reforming the unit swiftly? I no longer have any WHFB rulebooks so can only stick to my crap memory. I think it involved a Musician and passing a Ld test.

I'm cautiously optimistic here, this reads as if movement and formations are going to matter, however there is one possible speed bump - the scenarios.

Specifically game length, if we are on a five turn, or worse a four turn, game then the time taken to change formations its perhaps a large penalty (assuming it is a time to change, if could be something you do at the end of movement - as in can deploy in a march column, move, then reform, maybe with Ld check - don't know as yet)

bringing in the ability to reform on an Ld check and move, or if failed you reform but cannot move could be interesting.

also reduced charge ranges is good as it gives space to move and hopefully removes the "terror bomb" charges, or at least kerbs it.

Will be interested in seeing the price and contents, in theory I have Bretonnia ready to go now and don't really need more, depending on what the skellies side gets they could be good though

I dunno I entirely agree.

I do get where you’re coming from. But stuff like Marching Order strikes me as an opportunity to take the overall shape of your battle line away from “well, it’s setup or nuffink”

It’ll take a bit of getting used to, and more to get really good with it. But a wily opponent may end up with the opportunity to setup up with false weakness, using Marching Order etc to spring their trap?

I’m not describing this well, but hopefully you can get the gist of my wibblings.

I missed lapping round a bunch when it disappeared from 7th edition – I hope it’s back.

Wonder if Fly High is going to return?

It’s not been part of the game for yonks, but up until at least…I wanna say 5th Ed? A unit that could Fly could be removed from the board one turn, and charge *anything* the turn after.

Suffice to say this was incredibly powerful, and if I had say, a couple of units of Harpies, I could reliably be destroying your artillery from no later than turn two. And if I’d gone first, I guess enjoy your single solitary barrage before I’ve minced or otherwise tied up your crew.

Oh, and if incredibly hazy memory serves, there was a single Magic Arrow which could target stuff Flying High. Might’ve been a spell or two as well?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and if incredibly hazy memory serves, there was a single Magic Arrow which could target stuff Flying High.

Yeah, Sky Arrow of Naloer. Or Naoler. Something like that. Was perhaps a bit of a gotcha card, but quite funny.

I wouldn't expect Fly High to come back though.

On the whole light cav thing - from memory the issue was better units. Dark Riders were incredibly annoying due to running around shooting things - and then representing a reasonable flank attack (elf+spear+horse) in a way that a goblin kind of wasn't. Kill 2 goblins, and they are facing a LD6 break test. Unsurprisingly failed a lot and ran off the board.

Dire Wolves were annoying because they had to be wiped to the last wolf. Flesh Hounds could eat lighter units.

Johanxp wrote:
Please, do not provoke. I play Kow and Conquest, two great ruleset, modern and streamlined but not as silly as Aos. This ruleset smell old.

Well, folks who want top tier streamlined rulesets already moved on to those two long ago. It's best for everyone if TOW does not try to copy those two but services folks who want a GW styled ruleset.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I missed lapping round a bunch when it disappeared from 7th edition – I hope it’s back.

That’s something I never used myself. But then, playing Chaos I rarely had the infantry to spare, so would rather keep my rank bonus than spend a couple of turns trying to negate yours.

Plus there wasn’t a great deal of stuff that could stand against Chaos Warriors on the charge!

Two simple things to make Fly High less broken: restrict the maximum armour save to 5+ (too heavy for liftoff) and require a leadership test to return.
The first one locks out true combat monster characters and the second means you have to be careful with throw-away skirmishing flyer units like harpies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I missed lapping round a bunch when it disappeared from 7th edition – I hope it’s back.

That’s something I never used myself. But then, playing Chaos I rarely had the infantry to spare, so would rather keep my rank bonus than spend a couple of turns trying to negate yours.

Plus there wasn’t a great deal of stuff that could stand against Chaos Warriors on the charge!

But that’s why it was great for goblins; you always had an extra rank or two to pull the flankers from so you didn’t have to lose static CR.

Lapping around is probably the most pointlessly fiddly concept since killing individual horses from chariots.

I do miss when Zombies lapped round more or less regardless. Of course, I think that was the same time that if they lost the combat, the whole unit was removed?

 kodos wrote:
So using the movement phase to get an advantage is WAAC
I can see now why people don't like certain games/Editions

Waac and That Guy are abused a lot as terms. I was called a waac guy for playing a completely normal MH warband at 1000gc last year, and That Guy in a 40k game where I didnt dispute a single rule but let the other chump get away with a ton of gak, especially the ghost inch in movement. They used to call players like me This Guy. Can only imagine people havent run into people on the spectrum with no socialization at the games tables, but have plenty of vocabulary about it, eager to use.

The random charge, not so random with 2d6 pick highest, is chefs kiss perfect in my eyes. Couldnt ask for a better solution.

Btw. What type of battlefield has fixed charges irl? Mechanisms should come from the irl situation, not just be 8 inches fixed for every unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Lapping around is probably the most pointlessly fiddly concept since killing individual horses from chariots.

I remember buying the 6th rulebook in 2001 and reading those rules over and over again hoping to use it and believing it to be a very decisive mechanic. Haha.

Does the current system mean I can use a 3 front swordsman group with 2 ranks, in TOW? For a total for 6 swordsmen?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
5 'man' unit goblin wolf riders in column 1 model wide and 5 ranks deep moving 27 inches up the table edge, reforming and turning 90 degrees turn 2, to be ready for a turn 3 rear or flank charge of 18 inches to the enemy.... glorious.

I love it. Like the cavalry in Braveheart when they ride round and gets the archers in that early battle. Arrive mid game, be decisive in mid game


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
So the charge model is more or less the same as WAP?

That strikes me as the best way to keep everyone happy personally.
Edit: It won't work, obviously, but it seems like a reasonable compromise between the two positions - the randomness is significantly reduced without going back to "charges will always succeed if you're good at eying distances."

Agreed. It allows enough randomness to prevent the ol' quarter-inch shuffle that plagued so many of my games in the past.

Exactly. My stomach hurts when I think of the hours wasted looking at some fellow grognard wheezing over the table shuffling shuffling shuffling.