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8th is very much the exception.

It’s overall to do with, well I guess the “shape” of the game.

With friendly units blocking LoS, and needing that for most ranged attacks, you needed to have an idea of how to best deploy your units to make LoS work for you.

Hence, hills were value commodities. One of those in your deployment zone with two tiers? Nice place for your artillery and a wide unit of ranged troops.

This meant ranged troops were typically taken in smaller units, certainly as small as your Army Book allowed. Those allowed you to spread your ranged attacks out, with different unit deployments neatly filling gaps (so, 7x3, 6x4 or whatever) whilst minimising wastage.

And as covered before? Deployment could very much lose you the game. Which sounds less fun than it was!

 Rihgu wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Rihgu wrote:
I'm guessing Armour Bane (1) plays into the fluff mention of being "even deadlier at short range". So extra AP at close range.

Yeah it’s probably something like “Armourbane [X] - when firing at a target within half maximum range, this weapon gains additional save modifier equal to -X.”

15 " -1 armor... yikes.

Can't be much worse than Woof Elves getting 30" Arcane Bodkins (at -3!)

Arcane bodkins sucks. Real lethal arrow was Hagbane tips

Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

It's been awhile, but what was the spell that jacked up all shooting and flying?

Tempest something?

 TalonZahn wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

It's been awhile, but what was the spell that jacked up all shooting and flying?

Tempest something?

Was there a spell? Skaven Storm Banner and maybe Orb of Thunder? (Editions blur together for me as far as magic items go).

Mozzamanx wrote:
Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

I laughed hard at that

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does make sense when you’ve played!

I know this can be an "8th edition was another country" thread - but is this a bad time to point out that a High Elf Archer 5*4 brick got to shoot 18 shots?
And while this may have been just another way 8th edition High Elves were comically overpowered, I feel it was quite a way down the list of problems.

I guess bricks of Repeater Crossbows would have been interesting - but again, typically you did 2 times 2*5 (as two ranks could shoot) and then 3*5 dark riders. I think that would get you to your requirements.

Going back to only the first rank being able to fire is actually quite a nerf. I'm intrigued if we see the same for close combat.

I was always fond of DE Crossbow dudes. Give them shields and they're swordsmen who ALSO get to shoot two S3 AP shots a turn. More than once I've used my opponent's dismissing them as 'just a ranged unit' to get in surprise flank charges with them. Reforming them 5x4 on turn 3 or so may cost you some firepower, but it's only S3 and wasn't going to be wiping out melee units anyway. What they ARE good at wiping out are chaff units - fast cav, scouts, skirmishers, and detachments - which allows your chaff units to do their job ensuring you get the melee matches YOU want.

Dwarf quarrellers can be even worse, as they can take great weapons and hit like a ton of bricks in melee.

Long and short: dismiss blocks of range troops with shields at your peril...

 TalonZahn wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

It's been awhile, but what was the spell that jacked up all shooting and flying?

Tempest something?

Howler Wind stopped any shooting St. 4 or lower targeting anything 12" from the caster. I'd have to look to see if it affected flying as I'm at my work kiosk right now.

 Vulcan wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does make sense when you’ve played!

I know this can be an "8th edition was another country" thread - but is this a bad time to point out that a High Elf Archer 5*4 brick got to shoot 18 shots?
And while this may have been just another way 8th edition High Elves were comically overpowered, I feel it was quite a way down the list of problems.

I guess bricks of Repeater Crossbows would have been interesting - but again, typically you did 2 times 2*5 (as two ranks could shoot) and then 3*5 dark riders. I think that would get you to your requirements.

Going back to only the first rank being able to fire is actually quite a nerf. I'm intrigued if we see the same for close combat.

I was always fond of DE Crossbow dudes. Give them shields and they're swordsmen who ALSO get to shoot two S3 AP shots a turn. More than once I've used my opponent's dismissing them as 'just a ranged unit' to get in surprise flank charges with them. Reforming them 5x4 on turn 3 or so may cost you some firepower, but it's only S3 and wasn't going to be wiping out melee units anyway. What they ARE good at wiping out are chaff units - fast cav, scouts, skirmishers, and detachments - which allows your chaff units to do their job ensuring you get the melee matches YOU want.

Dwarf quarrellers can be even worse, as they can take great weapons and hit like a ton of bricks in melee.

Long and short: dismiss blocks of range troops with shields at your peril...

Even without great weapons. WS4 is nothing to sneeze at, and they could take shields, so T4 and good armour made them pretty tanky.

20 quarrelers and a thane was the core of my army.

I rarely used GWs, or rangers.

I found it, lol

The Tempest - High Magic

48" in all directions from the mage.

All enemy units in range must pass Ld on 2d6 to move.

All Flyers forced to the ground.

All missile fire -2 to hit.

War Engines and Buildings take D6 S7 hits each magic phase until spell ends.

Remains in play.


Ahhhh, the good old days.

Which Edition was that in? Feels like one from Battle Magic!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which Edition was that in? Feels like one from Battle Magic!

Arcane Magic expansion (4th Ed.)

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Arcane_Magic

Old-Four-Arms wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which Edition was that in? Feels like one from Battle Magic!

Arcane Magic expansion (4th Ed.)

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Arcane_Magic

Used to have these cards. I really hope they bring back something similar. Great opportunity for some good art styles and easy little cash grab to boot.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Everyone's a badass until a Fireball kills 200pts of Waywatchers.

If the wizard survives almost 100 poisoned shots, divided into 10 units of 10 archers each. That's a lot of targets for your single 1d6 F4 fireball! xD

My main issue sofar is, that units like the trebuchet are FW resin, that already will put off a lot of potential new blood.
WHFB already had often availabilty issues for a lot of units, often army defining ones and the trebuchet f.e. being already FW resin imo doesn't bode well.

Oh people aren't going to buy the treb from FW, they are going to 3d print or get one from one of the numerous competitor kits.

 Vulcan wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does make sense when you’ve played!

I know this can be an "8th edition was another country" thread - but is this a bad time to point out that a High Elf Archer 5*4 brick got to shoot 18 shots?
And while this may have been just another way 8th edition High Elves were comically overpowered, I feel it was quite a way down the list of problems.

I guess bricks of Repeater Crossbows would have been interesting - but again, typically you did 2 times 2*5 (as two ranks could shoot) and then 3*5 dark riders. I think that would get you to your requirements.

Going back to only the first rank being able to fire is actually quite a nerf. I'm intrigued if we see the same for close combat.

I was always fond of DE Crossbow dudes. Give them shields and they're swordsmen who ALSO get to shoot two S3 AP shots a turn. More than once I've used my opponent's dismissing them as 'just a ranged unit' to get in surprise flank charges with them. Reforming them 5x4 on turn 3 or so may cost you some firepower, but it's only S3 and wasn't going to be wiping out melee units anyway. What they ARE good at wiping out are chaff units - fast cav, scouts, skirmishers, and detachments - which allows your chaff units to do their job ensuring you get the melee matches YOU want.

Dwarf quarrellers can be even worse, as they can take great weapons and hit like a ton of bricks in melee.

Long and short: dismiss blocks of range troops with shields at your peril...

That just proves how bloody good shields where in 6th and 7th edition. Seriously under costed piece of equipment.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh people aren't going to buy the treb from FW, they are going to 3d print or get one from one of the numerous competitor kits.

Well, it's merely the Trebuchet for Bretonia (even if it from a tactical toolset position is the only thing in a very specific and important niche) but what about Bestigors, HQ like butchers and breakers(?) , what does that mean for Tombkings? Or forbid more prevalent the gaping tactical tool lack in certain armies like chaos warriors which only have the chaos dwarf daemoncannon thingy for ranged.

Also i know a lot of people not thrilled about the fact that it is IGOUGO and we haven't seen a reaction system to break up the monotomy.

 Vulcan wrote:
I was always fond of DE Crossbow dudes. Give them shields and they're swordsmen who ALSO get to shoot two S3 AP shots a turn. More than once I've used my opponent's dismissing them as 'just a ranged unit' to get in surprise flank charges with them. Reforming them 5x4 on turn 3 or so may cost you some firepower, but it's only S3 and wasn't going to be wiping out melee units anyway. What they ARE good at wiping out are chaff units - fast cav, scouts, skirmishers, and detachments - which allows your chaff units to do their job ensuring you get the melee matches YOU want.

Dwarf quarrellers can be even worse, as they can take great weapons and hit like a ton of bricks in melee.

Long and short: dismiss blocks of range troops with shields at your peril...

You certainly could - and I'm sure it worked on people who underestimated them.
I think the counter-argument is that this is getting kind of costly. I mean weren't DE Crossbow guys with shields 13 points a model in 8th? So 20 of them is 260 points. At the point I feel they are a prime target for all sorts of hammer units, rather than something that can be thrown away. (Although, admittedly, some 8th lists tended to be "death star and redirectors", rather than multiple hammer units.)

To add context on points, Black Guard were only 15. And that seemed a lot given Executioners were 12, Witch Elves 11 etc.

Never regretted a single point spent on Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows.

Giving them shields felt like an auto-upgrade.

Sure, they weren’t great in combat. But the sheer volume of shots they could vomit at the opponent was disgusting.

Keep them to units of 10, and even reforming into 5x2 to receive a charge? They could see off Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers, and/or provide a handy dandy “should’ve seen that coming” flank supporting charge.

And as said, WHFB range stuff to me was rarely about deleting enemy units. Rather, you were looking to erode enemy rank bonus, pick off smaller units and foolish lone characters who wandered into range and view.

If I could reduce your rank bonus it just +1 (easier than it sounds, needing to kill as few as 6 models!) then my ranged stuff had done its work, as even Fast Cavalry and Skirmishers (hi Dark Riders!) were now looking at a fight they could win through a decent kill count.

I’d take Repeater Crossbows on anything I could. The number of folk who didn’t realise my Chariots carried them, and wound up taking some shock losses is daft! Heck, sometimes I even *just* squeaked a 25% loss Panic Test on an enemy unit, having left my Chariots to last. Granted that was passed more often than failed, but when they did fail? Glorious.

Not Online!!! wrote:
My main issue sofar is, that units like the trebuchet are FW resin, that already will put off a lot of potential new blood.
WHFB already had often availabilty issues for a lot of units, often army defining ones and the trebuchet f.e. being already FW resin imo doesn't bode well.

The game had entire units made of lead for most of it's lifespan, it will be fine.

FW's resin is perfectly okay for models that aren't tanks.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh people aren't going to buy the treb from FW, they are going to 3d print or get one from one of the numerous competitor kits.

Well, it's merely the Trebuchet for Bretonia (even if it from a tactical toolset position is the only thing in a very specific and important niche) but what about Bestigors, HQ like butchers and breakers(?) , what does that mean for Tombkings? Or forbid more prevalent the gaping tactical tool lack in certain armies like chaos warriors which only have the chaos dwarf daemoncannon thingy for ranged.

Also i know a lot of people not thrilled about the fact that it is IGOUGO and we haven't seen a reaction system to break up the monotomy.

Have they played any Warhammer ever?

Because it’s always been IGOUGO. So it’s like biting into a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and hoping it tastes of Chicken.

And there are reactions. Charge reactions. Stand, Stand and Shoot, Flee. Sometimes Fire and Flee if your Fast Cavalry.

As for the claim “people are just going to 3d print”? Folk have been saying that about Heresy since it started. Guess what? Some do. Many don’t.

because there is a general "need to own the original for the shelf" vibe with those games rather than "I need an army to play the game"
I expect not seeing much newly bought original models with those who want to play, while on social media it will be contest on who owns what for display only

Not Online!!! wrote:
Also i know a lot of people not thrilled about the fact that it is IGOUGO and we haven't seen a reaction system to break up the monotomy.

isn't waiting 5 minutes for your opponent to roll his saves enough to break the monotony?

That IGOUGO "discussion" surely will lead to GW implementing changes at the last minute. So very useful having it in this N&R thread, since it most definitely will be a thing!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh people aren't going to buy the treb from FW, they are going to 3d print or get one from one of the numerous competitor kits.

Actually curious: can you please point me to some of those "numerous competitor kits"? I am aware of some nice 3D print alternatives for "not Bret trebuchet", but I know of nothing else in terms of actual kits.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Oh people aren't going to buy the treb from FW, they are going to 3d print or get one from one of the numerous competitor kits.

Well, it's merely the Trebuchet for Bretonia (even if it from a tactical toolset position is the only thing in a very specific and important niche) but what about Bestigors, HQ like butchers and breakers(?) , what does that mean for Tombkings? Or forbid more prevalent the gaping tactical tool lack in certain armies like chaos warriors which only have the chaos dwarf daemoncannon thingy for ranged.

Also i know a lot of people not thrilled about the fact that it is IGOUGO and we haven't seen a reaction system to break up the monotomy.

Have they played any Warhammer ever?

Because it’s always been IGOUGO. So it’s like biting into a McDonalds Quarter Pounder and hoping it tastes of Chicken.

And there are reactions. Charge reactions. Stand, Stand and Shoot, Flee. Sometimes Fire and Flee if your Fast Cavalry.

As for the claim “people are just going to 3d print”? Folk have been saying that about Heresy since it started. Guess what? Some do. Many don’t.

The fact that they played is preciscly why they are not thrilled that whfb with its somewhat large size especially for certain factions still remains igougo.

 Darnok wrote:
Actually curious: can you please point me to some of those "numerous competitor kits"? I am aware of some nice 3D print alternatives for "not Bret trebuchet", but I know of nothing else in terms of actual kits.

z.B.:
https://en.momminiatures.com/product-page/honda-of-god

https://www.amazon.de/ZVEZDA-Modellbausatz-Plastikbausatz-Zusammenbauen-detaillierte/dp/B000J3Y59A

https://www.norbaminiatures.com/gb/miniatures/470-trebuchet.html

https://www.reapermini.com/miniatures/trebuchet/latest

If anyone is looking for 3rd party minis they should just stalk the 9th age forums. Each race has a thread where users list all the options for miniatures and they are quite extensive.

Here is a link to the latest page for Bretonnia:

https://www.the-ninth-age.com/community/index.php?thread/352-models-for-the-kingdom-of-equitaine/&pageNo=331

Rules and cost will determine the success of this game...so far I like the rules previewed but we still are out on costs. If it's reasonably priced compared to competitors namely mantic, I think it has a real shot of being successful.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which Edition was that in? Feels like one from Battle Magic!

I found it in the 5th Edition spell list also.

I believe that was referred to as Hero Hammer, but I mean... that was like 20(?) years ago?

As it's High Magic, I recall being into High Elves and Lizardmen really hard, lol