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 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
USR article is up

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/11/old-world-almanack-living-saints-and-special-rules/

Interesting on Swiftstride not only adding +1d6 to your charge range, but increasing your "maximum charge range" by 3"

I don't think we've seen anything about maximum charge ranges before.

Weirdly, the text of the article says +D6", but the image says +D3". I suspect the typo is in the text, but they should probably update the article.

Swiftstride gives +3 max and +d6", and Virtue of the Impetuous Knight (in the image) gives +3 max and +d3". They're different abilities.

---
I'm not really a fan of Armour Bane bringing the 'nonsense on 6s' over to WFB.

Interesting to see them diverge from the old 'shock elite' profiles that constrained warhammer units for a long time.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why does one unit need nine special rules? Good god

because this is the current styl for SG games, similar with LI

if everything is special, nothing is and having too many stuff on some units just results in bloat simply because everyone will need lot of special rules to be viable
we have already had that with Warhammer

 kodos wrote:
leaving out the rebasing or not stuff, but why everyone thinks that to actually do rebasing you need to remove the miniature from the old base?

Even if one does not use the original hollow GW bases but solid ones, you would alway simply just glue the old base with the miniature on it, onto a new base or plastic sheet

like if you have solid bases, get the renedra 25mm flat and add Greenstuff/Milliput to fill up the edge
or if you have hallow ones, remove the edge of the old base and glue it on the new one

just google the different re-basing stuff for 40k as Marine players have done this several times over the years and removing the miniature from the base was never part of that

Two related reasons.

1)I still play oldhammer, so rebasing can't be permanent.

2) Using adaptors loose means picking up a mini, and THEN picking up the loose adaptor.

You can deal with my old bases, or we won't play.

 kodos wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why does one unit need nine special rules? Good god

because this is the current styl for SG games, similar with LI

if everything is special, nothing is and having too many stuff on some units just results in bloat simply because everyone will need lot of special rules to be viable
we have already had that with Warhammer

Well, a fair amount of these are (and were) army rules and formations they can adopt (Lance or Close Order), which wouldn't have been in the unit entry as USRs.

On the other hand, I don't think Finest Warhorses, First Charge and Swiftstride all need to exist.
Counter charge probably does, because they're a hefty price tag for being relatively ineffectual without the lance (and a lower armor save).


Having close order/open order/skirmishers/special stuff (like lance formation) spelled out in the unit entry is just good sense.

I quite like everything I see. Perhaps a case could be made for separating out some of the USRs, for example having the allowed formations of a unit listed in their own line rather than mixed in alphabetically.

Vorian wrote:
Any human sized miniature and up look so much better on a 25mm base, just a shame they didn't do it several editions ago.

Unless you're modeling a tight pike or spear block....


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 Kanluwen wrote:
Aren't most people going to be using movement trays anyways?

The base thing becomes moot then. Build the slots on the trays to accommodate the "correct" size and then have filler in between. Voila, problem's solved.

It's probably the solution I'll go with.

It's still not a GOOD option, if you have a couple hundred movement trays made for thousands of models. And where a 5x5 tray made for 20mm bases used to be 100 mm and had no empty space to fill, a 125mm tray to 'fit' the arbitrarily upsized bases will have significant gaps with those 20mm bases. Either you spend a ton of time filling the space, or you just learn to ignore it (which is probably where I'll wind up).

Can we all agree unless you’re playing in a competitive setting (and that’s for GW events, others will depend on the TO), base size shouldn’t matter. It’s like playing my Daemons in 40K that were all on squares. Never played as an advantage and most people didn’t have a problem.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Given the last paragraph, I take it this was the last preview. At least as far as regular Monday previews are concerned. Shame if so.

Well yeah, it’s December; the content is winding down for the holidays so everyone can come in fresh for the new year… which is when TOW is releasing.

They said on the Old World Facebook page that another one is coming before Christmas.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Personally I have no intention of rebasing my armies and not sure why others would either. It seems rather pointless when things like this exist:



Besides I really wouldn't care all that much about how others base their models. I'm a veteran enough gamer that I can make it work.

$$$. I'd really rather buy minis with the money, than buy replacement movement trays.

I hadn't seen those, though. If I ever pull the trigger, it'll probably be those. Sigh.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Given the last paragraph, I take it this was the last preview. At least as far as regular Monday previews are concerned. Shame if so.

Well yeah, it’s December; the content is winding down for the holidays so everyone can come in fresh for the new year… which is when TOW is releasing.

"sometime in the new year".

Just don't assume it's new year the celebration. That's too specific to need sometime and gw doesn't generally release big stuff that weekend.

I expect they usd new year as in 2024, not the old year 2023.

Note also we know what comes to stores up to 13.1.

So Grail knight Charge is with various spcl rules

Grail Knights: base of 8 = (best of 2d6) +D6 (swiftstride) with Impertious Virtue (+D3) (all re-rolling 1's)

 Mr Morden wrote:
So Grail knight Charge is with various spcl rules

Grail Knights: base of 8 = (best of 2d6) +D6 (swiftstride) with Impertious Virtue (+D3) (all re-rolling 1's)

The base grail knight is:
Grail Knights: base of 8 = (best of 2d6) +D6 (swiftstride) limited to a max of 17" if I understand it correctly. Rerolling 1s

Then the virtue is only if you pay for that option for the champion and you will lose it if he die.

Well I don't mind Grail Knights (and similar units) having plenty of special rules (some of which are army specific ones) as those are expensive, "Rare" units. Gotta be special!

And while 75 USR (+ army specific ones) sounds a lot, I don't think any army uses more then 1/4 at most times and most of these rules end up being simple and very rudimentary.

Also, reference sheets!

 Vulcan wrote:

$$$. I'd really rather buy minis with the money, than buy replacement movement trays.

I hadn't seen those, though. If I ever pull the trigger, it'll probably be those. Sigh.

I mean fair enough. I personally have always built my own Movement trays using Balsa wood and cardboard, and I also have 6 armies so I dont need to spend MORE money on models as I already have more then enough to paint.

also the picture I used are a Litko product so, naturally, waaay more expensive then it needs to be. Hitting up Etsy I already see people selling cheaper alternatives and I'm sure well see more when the official base sizes are released.

But if buying different movement trays is all its going to take to update my armies for this game, thats an expense I can bare.

Just read the article. Special rules bloat? Check, unnecessary complication of the mechanics of the game? Check.

Pretty much what I was expecting at this point.

Still possibly some nuggets of special rules to look through once we see them all to get ideas for house rules, though.


And I noticed Stomp is still in. Ugh. This is basically 8th Ed. with the mechanics and rules bloat doubled. Calling it now.

Cyel wrote:Oh, yes, the Daemons-Vampires-Dark Elves period of 7th is definitely something that started putting me off the game, and 8th sealed the deal.

You and I came to the same conclusion at the exact same moments, it would appear.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
There was a character list as well. And all six pegasus knights are women, which has rather amusingly set off a certain faction of..people.

Keep banging that gong, I'm sure it never gets old to you.

Overread wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
There was a character list as well. And all six pegasus knights are women, which has rather amusingly set off a certain faction of..people.

The Leia, Ripley and Sarah O'Connor fanclub?

At one point Inquisitor Gideon must have come across a misogynist while playing. They now infer that they are the predominance of the player base, and that every hack at them is some sort of crusading victory. It's come up multiple times in this thread alone.

Vulcan wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Crap ideas are crap ideas whether I play the system or not. And is that seriously the best trolling you can do?

Not trolling. A serious question. You've said REPEATEDLY you're hard out because it has random charge ranges. Why do you lurk here and continue to comment if you already know you hate it? Why can't you let the rest of us consider things in peace?


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 Just Tony wrote:

Show me the rule on an open forum that says I have to commit to playing a game before commenting on it.


Go ahead, I'll wait.

It's not a rule, but it's generally considered polite to not troll people discussing a game you've already decided you hate.

If you bothered to read my OTHER posts, which given the fact that you've cherry-picked two comments from me and then found SEVERAL after I answered this already, then you'd see why I follow.

Ultimately, I don't answer to you, nor does anyone else on this board. If you think my posting is breaking rules, then report it. Last I checked, though, having and voicing an opinion wasn't one of the violations of said rules.

Vulcan wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Utter, utter cobblers.

Sure, character models relied on fancy saves and that? But from 6th-8th, Herohammer was kind of done. In a unit they’d prove potent. But not on their own. Typically their Attack value barely scratch Rank and Banner combat res. Even if it exceeded (which was rare), they’d need to roll really, really well to even break even.

In a unit? I’d see you coming. And being a half way decent opponent? I’d look to my own forces and consider my counter. Maybe I’d chuck two or three chariots in, and just lawnmower my way to your General’s demise. Because all those fancy saves don’t matter when I’m running your broken unit down. Maybe I’d do what I could to play a wee sub game of “keep away” and refuse to engage the character and their unit.

Am I the only one accurately recalling the trials and tribulations of playing WHFB reasonably well?

Than you are not recalling Vampire lords with Red fury and Dread lance. 4 S7 attacks that hit automatically and for every wound you cause, you get to roll another attack. It seems you do not recall loosing 8 FREAKING dudes on a charge to single character.

You are not recalling Dark elf Assassins that took NO hero slots and had 6 WS10 ASF killing blow attacks.

You are not recalling Demon Bloodthirster with 0+ AS, 5+ WS, fly rule, terror rule and about 6 S7 hatred attacks.

You are not recalling High elf noble on a Star dragon single handedly won tournaments.




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 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

No, but there don't appear to be too many of us. People tend to forget that WHFB was usually won or lost in the movement phase. Just having the most guns and the killiest Death Star unit wasn't enough.

Dark elf players taking a unit of 40 shades with great weapons and repeater crossbows and slamming all the characters in it was usualy enough to win. Or WoC players taking a unit of Chosen and slamming all the buffs on it was the meta. Or Empire taking 3 cannons, Hellblaster, 4 units of missle infantry and steam tank. Vampire counts with 15 power dice?

You can praise the movement phase all you want but what won the games, was the ability to remove enemy models from the board.

HIlariously, I remember trying Shadestar and getting my butt kicked by superior maneuvering. I learned the tricks, and from there was able to defeat the other deathstars you bring up not by engaging them, but by pointedly NOT engaging them...

And you'll see a predominance of the posts referring to 6th/7th, while you reference 8th Ed. chicanery. Maybe discuss like for like?

I loathed 8th and all the shenanigans that came with those poorly designed rules. The more we see of TOW, the more of 8th I see coming back. That's not a good thing.

artu87 wrote:Isn't it much easier to get something like this?



You also have the plus that you can go back playing whatever version of oldhammer you want in case you don't like TOW.

If I were to play TOW at all, then THESE in Goblin Green would have been my answer.

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
You know, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that by up-sizing bases fewer models fit under templates.

Of course, I'm a little disappointed in myself for pointing it out...

Templates should not be in the game because they are a point of contention between players. Arguing who is under and who is not.

Something like D6+1 for each rank of 5 models hits for stone throwers/round template spells and D3+1 for each rank/row for breath template would be better imo.

Template cheating was relegated to a rare few TFGs that show up at clubs/stores, and was a handy guideline to show you who NOT to ever play against. OR employ a 3rd party to verify hits.

I have (possibly HAD, due to scheduling and my military retirement) a 40K opponent who went back to 3rd Ed. to get games in during drill, and having NEVER used templates in games before had NO trouble distributing hits/effects. Maybe it's not the template/rules: maybe it's the WAAC player.

 Vulcan wrote:

You can deal with my old bases, or we won't play.

I see no reason why we should play TOW at all if none is willing to adapt to the new game because than any other rules system will be a better choice

leopard wrote:

Darkial wrote:
Algo no more extra armour just from being mounted, so knights are not as resistant at 3+ instead of 2+. With more weapons with armour penetration their going to suffer a little, but the rest of the rules seem to compensate (or I hope they do)

looks like "charge and you should break your first target, if you choose wisely... so choose wisely for after your first charge you will be a spent force"

In other words, same as always for Bretonia. Pick the biggest thing you can kill on the charge... and then the survivors play 'keep away' the rest of the game to preserve points.

 kodos wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

You can deal with my old bases, or we won't play.

I see no reason why we should play TOW at all if none is willing to adapt to the new game because than any other rules system will be a better choice

I suspect Vulcan won't have any issue finding opponents who will gladly play against his old bases once they realize that their template weapons will be netting them ~20% more damage against his undersized models.

Today’s article is mostly a Bretonnian focus, but covers some USR.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/11/old-world-almanack-living-saints-and-special-rules/

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

You can deal with my old bases, or we won't play.

I see no reason why we should play TOW at all if none is willing to adapt to the new game because than any other rules system will be a better choice

I suspect Vulcan won't have any issue finding opponents who will gladly play against his old bases once they realize that their template weapons will be netting them ~20% more damage against his undersized models.

That's the balance against me doing 20% more damage in close combat due to closer formations.

Or if that troubles them, THEY can buy me a bunch of movement trays. Or we could just play Oldhammer instead.

Darkial wrote:

The base grail knight is:
Grail Knights: base of 8 = (best of 2d6) +D6 (swiftstride) limited to a max of 17" if I understand it correctly. Rerolling 1s

Then the virtue is only if you pay for that option for the champion and you will lose it if he die.

(Charge) Average for best of 2d6 is 4.49. If you reroll 1s than it goes further up to 4.9?
(Swiftstride) Average of d6 is 3.5. If you reroll 1s than it goes to 3.9.
(Virtue) Average of d3 is 2. If you reroll 1s than it goes to 2.3.

This gives the Grail knights an average chrage distance of 8 + 4.9 + 3.9 + 2.3 = 19 inches!! (maximum being 20 inches)

19 inches average charge distance is very good for heavy cavarly if you consider that average heavy cavarly might not have Swiftstride, Virtue and Bret horses giving them an average charge distance of 8 + 4.49 = 12.5 inches.

Not bad for sure. Even the standard average of 16.8 for them or any other Bretonia knight is nice. It's basically the maximum distance they can charge on average.
So before it was 8+8.5 (3D6 drop the lowest). It is an improvement in the absolute value, but a much higher improvement on the relative to the max charge possible.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why does one unit need nine special rules? Good god

And why the nested special rules? GRAIL VOW gives immunity to fear/terror (which I'm sure is a distinct special rule of its own) and MAGICAL ATTACKS and something unique with break tests. If the aim to to make the special rules easy to remember - like the Stomp example in the article - why hide some under other special rules?

Why not give Grail Knights IMMUNE TO FEAR/TERROR and MAGICAL ATTACKS and let GRAIL VOW just give the break test ability? It may save space the way they do it now, but it runs contrary to the memory jogger they're intending such rules to be.

Also, why not just make formation a 'stat', like base size? Rather than have to root through special rules to find skirmish or close order, just have a single line "Formation: Close Order/Lance" to - again - make things easier to read/remember.

Because Grail vow, Questing vow and Knight vow are a Bretonia thing. It will make sense if you read their army book.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why does one unit need nine special rules? Good god

And why the nested special rules? GRAIL VOW gives immunity to fear/terror (which I'm sure is a distinct special rule of its own) and MAGICAL ATTACKS and something unique with break tests. If the aim to to make the special rules easy to remember - like the Stomp example in the article - why hide some under other special rules?

Why not give Grail Knights IMMUNE TO FEAR/TERROR and MAGICAL ATTACKS and let GRAIL VOW just give the break test ability? It may save space the way they do it now, but it runs contrary to the memory jogger they're intending such rules to be.

Also, why not just make formation a 'stat', like base size? Rather than have to root through special rules to find skirmish or close order, just have a single line "Formation: Close Order/Lance" to - again - make things easier to read/remember.

Who knows. Perhaps they can loose "grail vow" for some reason and need to simplify that function.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Why does one unit need nine special rules? Good god

And why the nested special rules? GRAIL VOW gives immunity to fear/terror (which I'm sure is a distinct special rule of its own) and MAGICAL ATTACKS and something unique with break tests. If the aim to to make the special rules easy to remember - like the Stomp example in the article - why hide some under other special rules?

Why not give Grail Knights IMMUNE TO FEAR/TERROR and MAGICAL ATTACKS and let GRAIL VOW just give the break test ability? It may save space the way they do it now, but it runs contrary to the memory jogger they're intending such rules to be.

Also, why not just make formation a 'stat', like base size? Rather than have to root through special rules to find skirmish or close order, just have a single line "Formation: Close Order/Lance" to - again - make things easier to read/remember.

They do it for characters. Your general can have a knight's vow, a questing vow, or a grail vow. Depending on which one they have, they get different bonuses. They also apply it to the unit for consistency.

I imagine people will get used to it but I'm in the camp that is thinking this is far too many special rules. Especially for the first "reveal".

Sure, WHFB was ever thus - but we are many years later. It feels some degree of elegance could be applied to the system.

Complete aside with a question about a situation I’ve never encountered?

If a game is Brets vs Brets, and both sides decide to Pray?

How did folks resolve that? Just both have the benefit and roll for First Turn normally?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Complete aside with a question about a situation I’ve never encountered?

If a game is Brets vs Brets, and both sides decide to Pray?

How did folks resolve that? Just both have the benefit and roll for First Turn normally?

Well there was 2 ways to go with this. First was as just you said so both get the ward save but you roll who goes first.

Second (that I have heard/seen) was that you roll who prayed harder as it would be weird that both sides would benefit from Blessing so you would roll if you prayed harder.

They moved things like formation types a unit can make and things like stomp away from all unit types have this rule to the actual datasheet that way they can restrict say Empire Knights from doing lance formation and so on. Realize that's probably not the best example but y'all hopefully get my point.

Warhammer fantasy has always been a lot of special rules to remember, which you did by playing a lot. It beats the current state of 40k where there are no USRs really and just a different name for the same thing over multiple factions or one faction has a better USR then the rest lol.

Army selection is next week's preview!


Double post