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I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.

printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

so unless we get a nice surprise and the Journal is a full army book so Bretonnia/Khemri don't need the indey at all this is the worst combination possible
that the Neutral factions are gone and rolled into the bad ones does not help either

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.

Well there's a couple of scenarios there:

1. Everything in the horde books. These supplements contain tons of background, lots more photos, artwork, maps, no doubt heraldry and whatnot and even army-specific scenarios alongside the magical disciplines, special characters and race-specific magical items. Should all of that be in the "hordes" book? Wouldn't that make it even more expensive.

2. Self-contained race-specific army books. I look at 10th - a game with Indices - and how dry that's become with the slow wait for actual Codex releases. I wouldn't wish that fate upon a brand new reemergent Warhammer Fantasy. Much rather get solid complete army lists out as quickly as possible.

I mean, Oathmark has one big book and then multiple expansions which are not strictly necessary and no one complains about that. Now, it looks like I need two books to play Brets or Tombs Kings currently, and then we have expansions in the Arcane Journals for optional extras. So outstanding issues are 1) how much these books are going to cost, 2) just how much of a decent game can I play with the two books I need, 3) are those Arcane Journals going to start some silly power creep that means they are actually required, 4) how many Arcane Journals are their going to be per factio?

You can certainly avoid lots of these potential problems by going with another ruleset (Impetus or Clash of Spears come highly recommended by me). But we do not know exactly how big a problem all this will be (or at best we can provisionally extrapolate from past GW behaviour).

expect similar prices like with the other books from GW that are in a similar style, so we are looking at ~150€ for playing Bretonnia or Khemri on release

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Billicus wrote:
It's stunning to me that the rulebook is 352 pages and still doesn't have all the rules in it. I'll stick to Kings of War thanks

3 Hardbacks for the "temporary" army lists and rules? Probably over £100 in books? Then they'll release army books too?
Glad my wife said WHFB was boring and slow after playing it a few times with me, but enjoyed KoW.

I guess we are going to see some cheesy jokes from Ronnie coming up how you are going to get a full army in Kings of War for the same price as "just" the rules in TOW

 kodos wrote:
printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

???
Sorry what? You mean this 6th edition fantasy style of release?

People you talked to weren't expecting a printed index? The thing that makes the most sense?

What were you both expecting?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't think most people were expecting expensive hardback+expensive hardback+plus probably expensive softback to give an army everything that should have either been in the hordes book already or just gone the army book route.

Well there's a couple of scenarios there:

1. Everything in the horde books. These supplements contain tons of background, lots more photos, artwork, maps, no doubt heraldry and whatnot and even army-specific scenarios alongside the magical disciplines, special characters and race-specific magical items. Should all of that be in the "hordes" book? Wouldn't that make it even more expensive.

2. Self-contained race-specific army books. I look at 10th - a game with Indices - and how dry that's become with the slow wait for actual Codex releases. I wouldn't wish that fate upon a brand new reemergent Warhammer Fantasy. Much rather get solid complete army lists out as quickly as possible.

If they wanted to release them purely as fluff/art fine. No problem. But they have army specific rules as well, that's where it's hacking things off. That's quite literal day one DLC.

 Olthannon wrote:

???

6th Edition Fantasy saw a free (!!) index book, printed and as pdf to start and full army books replacing the index lists over time
TOW now has a index book you pay for and an army book in addition, that as far as we know is not useable stand alone but has all the faction specific stuff like previous army books

and this was not expected as people either expected the index to be free (like in 6th) if there are army books coming, or paid index but without army books

but if you have expected to buy 2 books in addition to the rulebook to play the armies, I guess you are the exception

 Olthannon wrote:

 kodos wrote:
printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

???
Sorry what? You mean this 6th edition fantasy style of release?

People you talked to weren't expecting a printed index? The thing that makes the most sense?

What were you both expecting?

Except it's not that, you still need Ravening Hordes alongside the army book. It's more like Codex Supplements.

Oh okay sorry I get it. You're saying people were just hoping that would be free and not cost money

I mean come on.


Also by the look of the article: you don't have to pay money for the paperback army supplements to play the game. They're optional extras. It seems unadvisable to go without but it's up to you.

It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – all the units and army rules are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals.

Says it right there in the article folks.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 kodos wrote:
printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

???
Sorry what? You mean this 6th edition fantasy style of release?

People you talked to weren't expecting a printed index? The thing that makes the most sense?

What were you both expecting?

Except it's not that, you still need Ravening Hordes alongside the army book. It's more like Codex Supplements.

I understoos it more like you get Skaven rulebook, but you can get a supplement to play clan skryre Laboratory guard force or Eshin raiding battallion?

So you dont really need the Arcane Journals.

People were hoping that the rulebooks would have the army rules in the them. Not piecemealed out among core rules, hordes and here's an extra supplement you need to make your army actually have it's theme on the table. This isn't hard.

Gotta see what's inside those ravening hordes books before I judge them. They better be full of art and stories to justify two of them. Still a bummer that the most important kits did not receive upgrades for either army.

 GaroRobe wrote:
What’s with all the tomb king flails? Were they ever a thing? We just got three models with them and I can’t recall a single model having one before

It's not really all the flails. The 6th ed army book had two magic flails: Crook and flail of radiance, described as symbol of kingship and probably not a war flail. Think Osiris here. And flail of skulls, an actual flail in the rules. There was also artwork of a lone charioteer, so probably a prince or king, swinging the flail of skulls.

In the 8th ed army book the magic item section was cut down severely. The flail of skulls wasn't dropped outright but given to the new special character Nekaph, who never got a model until now.

At a guess the designers figured that with a herald of a king as precedent, a bigwig like the battle standard bearer of the army is also eligible to a weapon that represents the king's power.

A less benevolent take is that because the skeletons are the old ones that are representative of troops you find in the Empire, and therefore have a flail on sprue, that inherited type of weapon goes with the Tomb Kings army just fine. I prefer the former assumption though, based on the specific styling of the new character flails

 Mr Morden wrote:
Armies of GOOD and EVIL - wtf !!

Tomb Kings are not "evil" - they are undead....but otherwise act the same as the other human kingdoms....

This is Warhammer not LOR

The good/evil divide was in a previous article. It did not bode well that they had this idea in the first place and its continued use doesn't inspire confidence. Best case scenario is that it's just a Warhammer Community thing that they think better off eventually, and hopefully sooner than you think. Worst case scenario, the setting gets dumbified.

Hope for the former, prepare for the latter, and accept that it's GW and we already know the answer.

 Olthannon wrote:
Oh okay sorry I get it. You're saying people were just hoping that would be free and not cost money

no, people expected to just buy 1 book, not 2

 Olthannon wrote:

It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – all the units and army rules are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals.

Says it right there in the article folks.

of course, same way the Codex and Rulebook is marketed as not required to play 40k and the Datacards and free pdf rules are enough
and now go and ask how many people are actually not playing with a Codex for their faction and not using the additional rules from the rulebook because they are technically not required

 triplegrim wrote:

I understoos it more like you get Skaven rulebook, but you can get a supplement to play clan skryre Laboratory guard force or Eshin raiding battallion?
So you dont really need the Arcane Journals.

and the article also mentions magic items and spells, so maybe those are just the specific Clan Eshin magic items and not the specific Skaven magic items
but this is still GW and I don't expect them to make something like this

 triplegrim wrote:
I understoos it more like you get Skaven rulebook, but you can get a supplement to play clan skryre Laboratory guard force or Eshin raiding battallion?

So you dont really need the Arcane Journals.

If this is the approach then I think this is much better than putting this stuff in the army book which is released once per edition or putting it in white dwarf. It allows plenty of background, art and rules which do not easily fit an army book. Of course, it might turn into Newcromunda, we just don't know yet.

Well the Book of Neutral would be just TK and Ogres.

 kodos wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Oh okay sorry I get it. You're saying people were just hoping that would be free and not cost money

no, people expected to just buy 1 book, not 2

 Olthannon wrote:

It is important to know that you don’t require an Arcane Journal to play your chosen faction – all the units and army rules are contained in Ravening Hordes or Forces of Fantasy – but they do provide a trove of extra options and extra depth for discerning generals.

Says it right there in the article folks.

of course, same way the Codex and Rulebook is marketed as not required to play 40k and the Datacards and free pdf rules are enough
and now go and ask how many people are actually not playing with a Codex for their faction and not using the additional rules from the rulebook because they are technically not required

Why did you pick apart my post like this and ignore the part that answers your own question?

what? the part that says you don't need to buy it?

that does not answer any question, as I wrote GW also says the same about the 40k Codex books, you don't need to buy them to play the factions, the Index cards are the only thing required

but time will tell

So you dont really need the Arcane Journals.

Sure, but this is GW. The better magic items, spells and army formations will be in the Journal. How else will they ensure most people buy it.

This is exactly what I expected when it comes to rules release, and the exact thing I don't like. Its feels very much like the necromunda release- bleed people for rulebooks which are outdated within months.

This is likely to push me to stick to 6th and/or 8th edition only. I might consider buying all the books in this first wave to have them for the new lore/art/as reference, but no way am I going to spend 100s on books on every release. I stopped at 2nd Ed AoS and other than campaign books, refuse to buy more rulebooks, there is just no need at all.

I think I will just be buying up what launch sets I can for the plastic minis, pick up a couple of odd plastic individual sets for stuff I'm missing and stick with old edition and mostly continue to collect old 2nd hand minis or from other companies instead.

I get that GW need to make money to keep the game going, but there just isn't enough substance in this release to make me want to spend the €€ to play 'keeping up with the meta', which this release now does appear to be.

Its only saving grace might be that these rules might be like MESBG, where the rules are much longer lived.

I'm also surprised they've not announce more for a whole game being released. No real hints of other models returning, terrain, additional bits other than the few things shown in photos (which might not even see release, but are just studio leftovers)

I still just see this more as a WFB 'MTO' run more than anything else.

Billicus wrote:
Certainly a lot of what they teased IS vaporware. Remember when they were showing off Cathay and Kislev?

They didn't say day 1 those though. They are coming. Too bad you cant expect reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:


Three books (two of which are multiple hundred pages hardbacks) to make one army function properly is a lot. There is no arguing that.

This is an odd complaint and yes you can argue it. So you need the rulebook and your army book. Two books same as most things. The Ravening Hordes books are a compendium until other army books get released..

Most people expected exactly this outcome.

Bretonnia needs forces of fantasy and bretonnia specific. You kind of need unit profiles. Just armies of infamy, magic items and special characters won't get you far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:

 kodos wrote:
printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

???
Sorry what? You mean this 6th edition fantasy style of release?

People you talked to weren't expecting a printed index? The thing that makes the most sense?

What were you both expecting?

A) above came with wd b) you didn't have supplement alongside c) when army book came lt was standalone.

"bit" different. 40k 10th doing more akin to this. Free index to begin with, army book later.

Not 2 pricey book you need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:
Oh okay sorry I get it. You're saying people were just hoping that would be free and not cost money

I mean come on.


Also by the look of the article: you don't have to pay money for the paperback army supplements to play the game. They're optional extras. It seems unadvisable to go without but it's up to you.
.

No. People expected to pay for 1 book. Not 2.

And arcane book isn't free so you need to pay. Or if you think you can play without magic items and not autolose..oh naivety. Oh and spells.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
That's quite literal day one DLC.

When you put it that way, I see what you're saying.

I suppose that GW is of the opinion that special scenarios and deeper looks into specific fluff and whatnot isn't enough to sell a whole book, so has to put something else in there to entice people to buy it. It really proves how silo'd they are, when you think about it. For all their (many, and unexplainable) faults, the 40k team finally figured out that people don't want to carry multiple books for their one army. Seems Specialist never got that memo.

Im really glad they did not make a 1000page lunker including everything for everyone just to get one book.

The setup with the books right now looks alot like what they did with Horus Heresy 2ed.
And that was actually exactly what I expected.

Since Ravening Hordes was brought up, it is worth noting that (with two exceptions), it was the best WHFB list ever assembled. Minimal special rules, minimal complexity, and it worked. Even after army books started coming out, players returned to RH. And it was free - a smart move to convince people to give the upgrade a chance.

Sucked to be TK or Brets, tho.

 Olthannon wrote:
Oh okay sorry I get it. You're saying people were just hoping that would be free and not cost money

I mean come on.
.

Just like in so many other games in the genre, yes.

Hoping, not expecting, though.

tneva82 wrote:


And arcane book isn't free so you need to pay. Or if you think you can play without magic items and not autolose..oh naivety. Oh and spells.

Ah so for the 6-8 months of the release, you are saying if you play against either Bretonnians or Tomb Kings you'll auto-lose?

Talk of naivety my surprise throughout this is that this general back and forth here seems to be that yous expect better of GW?

What company won't try and get as much money out of their customers as possible?

 Olthannon wrote:

 kodos wrote:
printed index + supplement was not on anybody's list as people expect either 8th edition 40k or 10th edition 40k/6th edition fantasy style of release

???
Sorry what? You mean this 6th edition fantasy style of release?

People you talked to weren't expecting a printed index? The thing that makes the most sense?

What were you both expecting?

This post makes me think you never played 6th edition, because comparing what you cited with what is happening now is very nearly unrelated.

 Olthannon wrote:
What company won't try and get as much money out of their customers as possible?

That's not the question, the question is whether you get more money in the long term delivering a quality product and treating customers with respect or just go all out nickel and diming them until they ragequit.

Hmmm, I did an inventory of Brett’s I received on sprue from a guy moving away…

Lord oh hippogryph
3 peg knights
Trebuchet
5 questing knights
24 knights of realm
BSB on horse
2 lords on horse
2 damsels on horse
Damsel on foot
11 bowmen

The box would add more of the peasants that I’d need but not sure I need 36 knights!!
Still, very tempting as I’d be basically done.