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 Geifer wrote:

And now for something completely different. To paraphrase the designers, "we gave Tomb Kings a dragon because Tomb Kings are evil and evil people have dragons".

Glad we established that.

Proof that pointy ear high elves have always been evil.

 kodos wrote:

Voss wrote:
MIniature design
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/01/03/old-world-almanack-designer-round-table-on-new-graphics-and-miniatures/

cannot imagine how Bretonnia might have looked like if there was not some sourcebook left by accientend by the previous team to continue as there is literally nothing else they could have used /s

what reads a little different here, there is the rumour that the original team for TOW left GW and the current team is only working on that topic for 6-12 months now.
going by that the talk about what previous designers left behind really sound like those guys are new to the topic and working for a long time or knew fantasy from before

Just where is that rumour coming from? We know who some of the Team for The Old World are, some of them were shown in the videos talking about Cathay for TWW3

I don't see anything in that article to suggest it's a different team who are new to it, not sure what gives you that impression

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It takes them a few years just to work on a new edition normally, and this this is far more than there would usually be from just that. It's the equivalent of a new edition + setting + miniatures years after they'd stopped working on the things relevant to it. Even just releasing new miniatures takes them 2-3 years. 4 years is not as bad as you're making out when you take all that into account.

they have re-released 2 old games recently, Legion Imperialis and now TOW
so either they have worked much longer on LI, or there was not much done in the past 4 years for TOW as there is a big difference between those 2 games

The difference is they didn't announce LI right around the time they started it, while they did for TOW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:
The fact that it has taken four-odd years to get to this point and this release is what they have to show for it demonstrates how little actual work has gone into the project...

[Citation Needed]

 MalusCalibur wrote:
GW do not care about WHFB and it shows...

Their actions - that being redoing an entire new edition of WFB, everything from rules, to artwork, to layout, to new fluff, and new miniatures, to publishing and shipping massive expensive new books across the entire world - tends to say the absolute. Literal. Opposite of that.

Agreed. If anything, TOW seems like a love letter to the genre.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just where is that rumour coming from? We know who some of the Team for The Old World are, some of them were shown in the videos talking about Cathay for TWW3

I don't see anything in that article to suggest it's a different team who are new to it, not sure what gives you that impression
.

It's the "Cathay and kislev were mentioned so (despite not having been said to be right from get-go) not being right now means things got changed midway!" conspiracy.

Nothing more. Some people just make up their own ideas and when they were wrong it's proof things got changed mid way. Not them being wrong.

the rumor about turnover is a nothingburger. I've dispelled it a couple times over the last however many pages. There was some turnover in terms of artists and sculptors but the core design team are mostly long-time GW vets and the really important people (like Andy Hoare) are all still there working on it.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Just where is that rumour coming from? We know who some of the Team for The Old World are, some of them were shown in the videos talking about Cathay for TWW3
I don't see anything in that article to suggest it's a different team who are new to it, not sure what gives you that impression

the rumour came up as they guy who designed parts of the dragon said that he does not like the combined model
there we got the confirmation that he and another person who were working on TOW left before the new models were finalised, and also the statement from someone else that everyone previously working on TOW was not part of team in 2023 any more

they are talking about what the previous team left behind and that it was ideal to continue working on TOW
without that rumour it would assume the original 8th Edition designers, but with that rumour it would mean the people who worked on TOW with Kislev and Cathay

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just where is that rumour coming from? We know who some of the Team for The Old World are, some of them were shown in the videos talking about Cathay for TWW3

I don't see anything in that article to suggest it's a different team who are new to it, not sure what gives you that impression
.

It's the "Cathay and kislev were mentioned so (despite not having been said to be right from get-go) not being right now means things got changed midway!" conspiracy.

Nothing more. Some people just make up their own ideas and when they were wrong it's proof things got changed mid way. Not them being wrong.

also this.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The difference is they didn't announce LI right around the time they started it, while they did for TOW.

so you think they worked more than 4 years on LI?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...everything from rules...

A lot of which, by their own admission, are rules from older editions bar a couple of stupid new inclusions (like the new Break Tests). This is GW; we both know they don't spend much time testing or refining rules for anything.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...to artwork...

How much of which do you think will be reused from older publications? Because again, going by precedent, that answer will likely be 'a lot'.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...to layout...

I do hope you arn't serious.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...to new fluff...

Judging by the quality of writing at GW (a medieval, feudal society suddenly has female knights! Tomb Kings are evil because screw nuance! Infinite Steam Tanks! etc) I don't think they earn much credit for that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...and new miniatures...

A couple of characters for each faction, and a grand total of one new plastic kit (two if the swarms are plastic, I forget) that is fairly dreadful. Comparing that to HH or LI's launches alone does not look favourable.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
...to publishing and shipping massive expensive new books across the entire world...

Quite apart from the fact that 'massive, expensive books' is not a positive thing, these are logistical tasks they will always have to do for *every* system release they ever manage. It doesn't count as part of the actual development time for any other game, why should it for this?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
tends to say the absolute. Literal. Opposite of that.

Not if you actually assess what four years has got you. Never mind what other companies or even other GW games have managed, this is poor when compared just with older edition releases for WHFB - just look at Battle for Skull Pass or Island of Blood.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It takes them a few years just to work on a new edition normally, and this this is far more than there would usually be from just that

.

Except, as shown above, it isn't.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It's the equivalent of a new edition + setting + miniatures years after they'd stopped working on the things relevant to it.

Putting aside the fact that them not working on it is entirely their own doing...so what? It's not like all WHFB assets and knowledge of them suddenly disappeared into thin air when AoS arrived; they were not working from scratch here and it is no excuse.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Even just releasing new miniatures takes them 2-3 years. 4 years is not as bad as you're making out when you take all that into account.

Individual factions get more new kits than this on release. Just look at Sisters of Battle, who were out of the limelight longer than WHFB has been. Or, for a more directly comparable example, look again to Skull Pass and Island of Blood.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're charging GW prices for GW kits, when several of the same sort of old kits are still purchasable for AOS at these prices, it's not as if it's some sudden shocking new thing they're just doing

Maybe not, but I can't think of a time where they tried to use kits from more than twenty years ago as part of a big release fanfare and had the gall to price them as if they were contemporary. But even that is academic; just because GW already do it doesn't make it acceptable, and continuing to allow it sends them the message that they can push that line further.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They briefly mention the time period WHFB was set in the last time we saw it, that the lore wasn't good doesn't mean it has no reason to be bought up when outlining their latest game.

End Time has no business being mentioned at all (however slight) because this is a 'historical' game, and was meant to appeal to fans of WHFB. Why even mention the thing that killed the game they love when it is entirely irrelevant to the setting?
The community articles (as worthwhile as *those* are) seem to make a point of mentioning it every time, which shows a level of disconnect between them and the people they are supposedly making the game for.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...the entire new Foot Knight unit? The new Tomb Swarms models?

Two units. After four years and as the release of what was once a flagship system. That, quite frankly, is pathetic. Let's not even touch on the fact that neither are particularly impressive models in of themselves.

So flanking just removes rank bonus like in previous editions except now everyone is "stubborn" so flanking is far less impactful. They managed to make flanking less impactful.
In 6th/7th if a full block was flanked it would loose 3 rank bonus and 1 flanking bonus. A 4 point swing that would likely be the end of a block. Now who cares about flanks if your LD is high.

Until we see all the rules about push back and fall back in good order I'm not thinking to hard about how flanking is affected. There could be something as simple as "if they are already engaged on another front the unit breaks instead of retreats in good order". Or it could make flanking pointless. Guess we'll see

Ya I remember going from 7th to 8th and the addition of step up just...ruined a lot of units. High initiative and ASF was meaningless if they just had a horde and could grind you out. Your unit either needed to be super high output, or switch to horde/grind out style itself to stay relevant.

And uh, we know exactly what happened. Everything turned into mega units, that just took as many buffs as possible to outlast and outdamage other mega units. Chariots, cavalry and most monsters completely disappeared. It was mega unit vs mega unit, with maybe a mega spell to jank them for good measure (hello flying vamp with power scroll to blast purple sun across an entire army)

Ya. Mega units can die swift death and good riddance.

Im generally positive to this game and the stuff they have come up with.
That said, the TK dragon is a really bad choise from the design team, and to se their reasoning behind the concept is just horrible to read.

I get the impression they decided to go with something that would sound good as a bretonnian adversary, rather than make sense in a TK setting.
The huge crocodile would have worked fine. Wings and a big Howdah for a flying beast dont work fine.

Well, I think its clear that MalusCalibur has never worked on any sort of creative endeavor or long term project bringing a product to market.

Very simplistic views there - the one that got me is that GW would still have the know-how of how to do WHFB type stuff almost a decade after killing it, nevermind that many of the core developers of WHFB have since retired or moved on to other things, nevermind that the remaining WHFB veterans are core developers on 40k or AoS now, nevermind that its a completely different internal studio working on TOW that had nothing to do with the team that did WHFB in the past, nevermind that almost none of the people actually working the TOW project ever worked on WHFB in the first place. They were working from scratch more than Malus realizes.

The attitude towards game design in general demonstrates a lack of knowledge or understanding of the process. Its not just "rules from older editions" copy-pasted together into a rulebook. Doesn't work that way, you could not do that and get a functional set of rules out of it. They took inspiration from previous editions and created a new game using elements from previous editions to create a new game inspired by something that came before. Thats a rather involved and laborious process, actually arguably harder than creating something new from whole-cloth as you're trying to maintain a certain feel and consistency/mechanical throughlines while still trying to improve on the formula. From experience, thats not easy to do. Thus far, I think most people are in agreement that on the whole the rules for TOW look remarkably sophisticated for a GW game (and I say this as someone who is a total rules *snob* and regularly insults the design chops of the GW studio).

And yes, creating a new edition of 40k or AoS is usually actually a roughly 2-3 year long process. The studio actually starts working on the next edition basically right after the current edition releases (keeping in mind that they only finished writing the current edition a few months prior to its release). They are literally working on preliminary drafts for 40k 11th right now as we speak.

Referencing the End Times is actually highly relevant - this was, from the very very very first announcement - framed as the Horus Heresy counterpart for Age of Sigmar, specifically, and would serve as part of the origin myth of the Age of Sigmar setting. Unfortunately you can't have Age of Sigmar without the end times, so mentioning it and maintaining the linkage between the TOW and AoS brand is part and parcel with the product, even if there are many customers who really rather it wouldn't. Thats likely a corporate decision to try to maintain the integrity of the AoS brand out of concern that some will perceive TOW as being an indicator of lack of confidence in the AOS brand or something. Anyway, early on they suggested that, owing to its nature as the Age of Sigmar historical prequel, TOW would have narrative elements that would reverberate forward in time through the End Times into the Age of Sigmar and there would be narrative linkage between them, similar to some of the stuff they have been doing between 30k and 40k. Frankly, I think we should consider ourselves lucky that TOW wasn't set in the End Times itself, as it would be more directly relevant and of greater narrative importance to AoS in terms of it being the settings origin myth, ala Horus Heresy to 40k. There are obvious reasons why you wouldn't want to try to sell that as a product (again), but it would fit better from a narrative perspective.

That all being said, Malus isn't totally wrong - this is still a seemingly lazy release. 3 new plastic kits that we know of (pretty sure Tomb Swarms are resin but not 100%), a handful of resin kits, insultingly overpriced metal kits, and substandard plastics that are old enough to vote in a US federal election. He seems to think that its because GW is inept and/or hates the setting, but I take a different stance on it.

For one thing, very early on after the announcement there was a *lot* of demand for GW to bring back WHFB exactly as it was, ancient gak models and all. I forget if it was here, reddit, or on facebook, but I argued extensively with people who were convinced that that was what was going to happen - and admittedly it was one of the few things I ended up being actually objectively wrong about. GW, in fact, brought back those old ass models, seemingly because thats what a very vocal segment (maybe a minority, maybe not) seemed to want.

My other take on it though, is that (as we know) GW is doing a staggered launch of the game with the core 9 factions. As a specialist project, theres only a limited number of production slots allocated to specialist games, and just bringing back all the old kits for those 9 factions is in fact a multiple of what GW usually allocates to all its specialist brands combined in any given year. So, despite not having everything ready to go on day 1, GW is actually committing a substantial amount of resources to putting this game out (especially if they get all 9 out within the 12-18 month window I expect them to). On top of that, they've also committed to putting out what looks to be somewhere between 9 and 18 brand new plastic kits (if Bretonnia and Khemri are anything to go by) across all these factions as part of this extended launch. That doesn't even begin to cover how they have resuscitated their metal production line and seemingly dedicated it full-time to supporting TOW, which is a pretty big undertaking in and of itself - refurbishing old rubber molds is time and labor intensive, and is very much a labor of love - I know from first-hand experience how much of a pain in the ass it is to work with rubber molds. So not only are they dedicated a substantial amount of production capacity to releasing the legacy WHFB models in all their glory, but they also have given the game about as many production slots as they have any other new specialist game on launch - I forget the numbers but HH had between 9 and 12 new plastic kits on launch day, and another 9 and 12 new plastic kits on top of that within 18 months of release. Assuming the other 7 factions follow the precedent of Bretonnia and Khemri, GW will be providing the same number of new kits for TOW over the next 12-18 months (anticipated) that it did to HH over the same timeframe. So again, GW is dedicating a pretty big chunk of its production capacity to supporting TOW.

And then theres the Kislev and Cathay angle - I have zero doubt in my mind that they are working on full new plastic miniatures ranges for these factions. Rumors from a while back was that Kiselv would come about a year after launch, Cathay about 2 years after (wasn't clear to me if it was 2 years after launch or 2 years after Kislev, I assume the former). As I've stated before, my expectation is that GW moves through the 9 core factions faster than most of you lot anticipate, basically a pair launched every other month, with faction #9 coming alongside an all new Kislev range in the Hebrew month of Kislev (november/december), right at the onset of winter, if not then shortly afterwards in winter 2025. The production lead times on plastic molds are substantial, some of those molds might even be being cut right now as we speak. Imagine doing everything I've outlined above, and then also launching a whole new faction with a whole new range of plastics, lets say another 8-12 or so plastic kits, on top of that. Clearly, GW is "pathetic" and they hate WHFB.

What it comes down to is impatience. People want their rank and file, and they want it now. They are unwilling or unable to imagine the future or see what the path forward looks like. Some of that is GWs fault for poor communication and heavy secrecy. Some of that is what seems to be a collective inability for a very large segment of this fanbase to set reasonable expectations for anything or learn from past experience and observe patterns of behavior in how GW operates. Whatever the reason is irrelevant, complaining about the perceived inadequacy of something based only on what you can see 2 weeks out when you know GW plays its cards close to the chest and definitely has more up its sleeve to follow is extremely short-sighted and foolish.

Tyel wrote:
I liked step up, and I fear this will revert to Cavalry Hammer without it.

All step up did was throw tactics out the window. If I out-maneuver you, that should count for something.

Well now, I though about making some bigger blocks for Beastmen but maybe I should aim for smaller units, both on field and in ambush. And hope for new Centigors.

Or just throw Ungors and Spawns under the cavalry. That should slow them down.

 MalusCalibur wrote:
...something, but really a lot nothing.

Listen, you're spending a lot of time and energy on being objectively wrong. While I agree that it would be nice to get a lot more in the way of 'new stuff', I can't imagine it's really all that easy with limited production to effectively re-launch a whole system from scratch. Even re-launching a single faction has to happen in waves (Sisters, Squats). Do you really expect them to release NINE whole armies with 100% new models?

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Just where is that rumour coming from? We know who some of the Team for The Old World are, some of them were shown in the videos talking about Cathay for TWW3
I don't see anything in that article to suggest it's a different team who are new to it, not sure what gives you that impression

the rumour came up as they guy who designed parts of the dragon said that he does not like the combined model
there we got the confirmation that he and another person who were working on TOW left before the new models were finalised, and also the statement from someone else that everyone previously working on TOW was not part of team in 2023 any more

they are talking about what the previous team left behind and that it was ideal to continue working on TOW
without that rumour it would assume the original 8th Edition designers, but with that rumour it would mean the people who worked on TOW with Kislev and Cathay

Got a link to the thing about stuff? Not heard about that.

It's quite clear that in that article, they're talking about the previous WHFB stuff, not previous TOW stuff.

 kodos wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The difference is they didn't announce LI right around the time they started it, while they did for TOW.

so you think they worked more than 4 years on LI?

More than likely around that sort of time frame, yes? I don't know why you'd think they hadn't been working on it for several years.we had rumours of Horus Heresy Epic back in 2022 at least. We've been told takes them 2-3 years just to go from designing to releasing miniatures.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It takes them a few years just to work on a new edition normally, and this this is far more than there would usually be from just that

.

Except, as shown above, it isn't.

Yes, it is. Absurd for you to try and make out that a new game in a new setting and all this entails is less that we'd get in a normal new edition.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It's the equivalent of a new edition + setting + miniatures years after they'd stopped working on the things relevant to it.

Putting aside the fact that them not working on it is entirely their own doing...so what? It's not like all WHFB assets and knowledge of them suddenly disappeared into thin air when AoS arrived; they were not working from scratch here and it is no excuse.

It should be pretty obvious what it means. A different team, a different goal, a different game, a different setting, all done years later. Without the same level of continuity that usually comes going from one edition to the next.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Even just releasing new miniatures takes them 2-3 years. 4 years is not as bad as you're making out when you take all that into account.

Individual factions get more new kits than this on release. Just look at Sisters of Battle, who were out of the limelight longer than WHFB has been. Or, for a more directly comparable example, look again to Skull Pass and Island of Blood.

It takes 2-3 years to release miniatures, therefore if they need kits for the start of the game, that's 2-3 years for it at least. The amount of kits is quite irrelevant.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They briefly mention the time period WHFB was set in the last time we saw it, that the lore wasn't good doesn't mean it has no reason to be bought up when outlining their latest game.

End Time has no business being mentioned at all (however slight) because this is a 'historical' game, and was meant to appeal to fans of WHFB. Why even mention the thing that killed the game they love when it is entirely irrelevant to the setting?
The community articles (as worthwhile as *those* are) seem to make a point of mentioning it every time, which shows a level of disconnect between them and the people they are supposedly making the game for.

Whether you like it or not, that is how we last saw WHFB. That was its final version. Mentioning it to make a comparison between that and a new game to show how things will be different is not "entirely irrelevant".

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...the entire new Foot Knight unit? The new Tomb Swarms models?

Two units. After four years and as the release of what was once a flagship system. That, quite frankly, is pathetic. Let's not even touch on the fact that neither are particularly impressive models in of themselves.

tneva82 wrote:


Also with step up people would be paying arm and teeth for initiave's, strike first etc only for it to be 100% useless...

Thats not entirely true, higher initiative means that you are situationally capable of wiping units entirely even before they have the opporunity to step up and counterattack. I wouldn't anticipate that being relevant beyond the late stages of a game, but its still something. Likewise, depending on what you're fighting, striking first would allow you to still potentially reduce the number of attacks that could be made against your own unit by causing enough casualties before your opponent has the opportunity to make their attacks.

Personally, I think neither approach is really the right one. No step up means that many units basically end up just being a block of wound counters that do nothing because they get hit before they can attack and suffer casualties that cancels out their ability to attack. Not fun and it results in one-sided drawn out combats. Yes step up lessens the importance of higher initiative, as striking first doesnt immediately benefit you and really only becomes a consideration with superelite murderballs/deathstars that can throw out an impossible number of attacks to wipe even the largest bricks out in a single combat. The right approach seems to be an in-between where step up exists, but the models "stepping up" can only make supporting attacks (they only get one attack regardless of how many are listed in their profile) at -1 to hit. In this case initiative still matters, but larger units aren't turned into a brick of wound counters either.

WorldEdgePlayer wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

And now for something completely different. To paraphrase the designers, "we gave Tomb Kings a dragon because Tomb Kings are evil and evil people have dragons".

Glad we established that.

Proof that pointy ear high elves have always been evil.

This is the best quote in this thread.

Looks like I need more wild riders.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Do you really expect them to release NINE whole armies with 100% new models?

No. But thankfully, there are possibilities that exist between the two extremes. And for the launch factions I'd expect more than one unit and a couple of character models each. Even though I like the old skeletons, it feels like updating those should have been the bare minimum.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Yes, it is. Absurd for you to try and make out that a new game in a new setting and all this entails is less that we'd get in a normal new edition.

It's hardly a new game and it certainly isn't a new setting. A couple of hundred years in WHFB doesn't change a whole lot about the armies you would get on the table or their capabilities, short of removing some of the idiotic stuff like the Empire laser cannon et al. And it *is* less than usual new editions get in terms of new stuff. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that what TOW is getting compares to IoB in terms of actual content?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It should be pretty obvious what it means. A different team, a different goal, a different game, a different setting, all done years later. Without the same level of continuity that usually comes going from one edition to the next.

All that tells me is that expectations should have been low from the start - a bunch of folk who have no real idea what they've got or how to properly handle it, as shown from the way they've spoken about it. And again, for practical purposes it is not a new setting, so please stop trying to use that argument.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It takes 2-3 years to release miniatures, therefore if they need kits for the start of the game, that's 2-3 years for it at least. The amount of kits is quite irrelevant.

If the number of kits doesn't matter and it'll be 2-3 years either way, why not more, then?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
2 units because you've decided that the other 8 or so don't count.

Given that I've already acknowledged the few character models, (of which only 2, to my knowledge, are plastic), please go ahead and name these 8 other units they made new models for.

chaos0xomega wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Also with step up people would be paying arm and teeth for initiave's, strike first etc only for it to be 100% useless...

Personally, I think neither approach is really the right one. No step up means that many units basically end up just being a block of wound counters that do nothing because they get hit before they can attack and suffer casualties that cancels out their ability to attack. Not fun and it results in one-sided drawn out combats. Yes step up lessens the importance of higher initiative, as striking first doesnt immediately benefit you and really only becomes a consideration with superelite murderballs/deathstars that can throw out an impossible number of attacks to wipe even the largest bricks out in a single combat. The right approach seems to be an in-between where step up exists, but the models "stepping up" can only make supporting attacks (they only get one attack regardless of how many are listed in their profile) at -1 to hit. In this case initiative still matters, but larger units aren't turned into a brick of wound counters either.

I guess I'm just worried about 8thisms. Could supporting attacks at -1 to hit make for a low impact attempt to fight back after getting hosed? Ya. It could also just be a mega brick of spearmen hitting on 5s instead of 4s and out trading whatever charged them in the first place.

It all really depends on the full combat res mechanics. In 7th, you knew your fodder with spears wasn't going to win combat against the chargers; the hope was they'd be able to stick around and allow you to counter charge in the flank or something and then grind out the W on combat res. We know that getting run down is way less common now, so having units meant to take the charge and hold the enemy unit in place for a counter is much more viable.

I haven't kept fully up to date though. Maybe they tweaked enough of the horde rules to prevent mega units from effectively having few counters and you can just flank them now too.

Why is anyone arguing? MalusCalibur clearly detests the release, rules, models, everything you possibly can, so why debate further?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
All step up did was throw tactics out the window. If I out-maneuver you, that should count for something.

Yes, out-manouvering M4" infantry with M8" cavalry, monsters, flyers etc truly indicates your mastery of the game.
How can I improve? What's that? Ditch the infantry and take lists of cav missiles, character busses and redirectors? Truly this is why anyone got into Fantasy.

Dudeface wrote:
Why is anyone arguing? MalusCalibur clearly detests the release, rules, models, everything you possibly can, so why debate further?

This.

There's two sides to this coin. GW has been cagey from the beginning, trying to stamp on over-high expectations by clarifying that models will be coming out in resin, that old models will be coming back, that they'll be focusing on a specific part of the world and specific factions, but careful under-hyping always gets drowned out by the wish-listing of the masses. On the other hand, they're giving people exactly what they asked for: WHFB is coming back. With all the good and the bad that comes with it. The monkey's paw curls another finger.

We now know what the two starting factions are going to be getting at launch, it'll all be up for pre-order this Saturday. Love it or hate it, that's likely the pattern going forward.

You all can speculate all you want about the whos and whats and whys and wherefores, but ultimately we wont know anything for certain until someone from the design team retires and does his tell-all autobiography "How I Designed a Bone Dragon and Made a Bunch of Nerds Waste a Lot of Time Online."

chaos0xomega wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Also with step up people would be paying arm and teeth for initiave's, strike first etc only for it to be 100% useless...

Thats not entirely true, higher initiative means that you are situationally capable of wiping units entirely even before they have the opporunity to step up and counterattack. I wouldn't anticipate that being relevant beyond the late stages of a game, but its still something. Likewise, depending on what you're fighting, striking first would allow you to still potentially reduce the number of attacks that could be made against your own unit by causing enough casualties before your opponent has the opportunity to make their attacks.

Personally, I think neither approach is really the right one. No step up means that many units basically end up just being a block of wound counters that do nothing because they get hit before they can attack and suffer casualties that cancels out their ability to attack. Not fun and it results in one-sided drawn out combats. Yes step up lessens the importance of higher initiative, as striking first doesnt immediately benefit you and really only becomes a consideration with superelite murderballs/deathstars that can throw out an impossible number of attacks to wipe even the largest bricks out in a single combat. The right approach seems to be an in-between where step up exists, but the models "stepping up" can only make supporting attacks (they only get one attack regardless of how many are listed in their profile) at -1 to hit. In this case initiative still matters, but larger units aren't turned into a brick of wound counters either.

TOW really seems to be pushing wide vs deep, which is actually quite a big change from previous editions and somewhat mitigates lack of step up.

1) ‘bus’ formation is essentially banned (other than for manoeuvre) given you get no rank bonus if you have more ranks than files.
2) every model in the front rank gets to attack, regardless of the frontage of the enemy unit (albeit supporting attack only if not in btb)

IMO this should push actual melee units into ranks of 6-7+
Particularly given the general reduction in AP, killing that number of something that actually wants to be in melee is relatively difficult.

And archers going wide are pretty much always going to get a chunk of attacks back. E.g. dwarfs with Xbows and GW’s in 10x1 are going to get a good load of high S decent AP attacks back regardless.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
Ya I remember going from 7th to 8th and the addition of step up just...ruined a lot of units. High initiative and ASF was meaningless if they just had a horde and could grind you out. Your unit either needed to be super high output, or switch to horde/grind out style itself to stay relevant.

And uh, we know exactly what happened. Everything turned into mega units, that just took as many buffs as possible to outlast and outdamage other mega units. Chariots, cavalry and most monsters completely disappeared. It was mega unit vs mega unit, with maybe a mega spell to jank them for good measure (hello flying vamp with power scroll to blast purple sun across an entire army)

Step up does not make mega units. Horde and support attacks make mega units. Step up means that your basic block of poor guys will always make their 5 attacks back. You see 5 attacks are not 30 attacks from 8th edition. 5 < 30? You get it? Initiative still matters in all fights where there are no extra ranks to make step up possibile.

No step up rule? Greatswords remain on the shelf :( No step up rule? Your block of 20 basic infantry are nothing more than wound counters :(

To be fair, everything but the front rank is nothing more than wound counters.