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 xttz wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
When are the next events with GW previews? Adepticon is end of March - anything before that?

LVO is in two weeks and usually has a Warhammer preview

Oh nice! So not long to wait now.

 Darnok wrote:
When are the next events with GW previews? Adepticon is end of March - anything before that?

Isn't LVO this month?

 Darnok wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
When are the next events with GW previews? Adepticon is end of March - anything before that?

LVO is in two weeks and usually has a Warhammer preview

Oh nice! So not long to wait now.

I doubt old world will get much more than a token "loose video non-announcement via artwork and noises" so soon after launch.

Depends on how quickly they're wanting to get more factions out there - there's the potential for a reveal of the next 1 or 2 (depending on if single or paired releases), and maybe a roadmap.

Of course, it's also possible there'll be nothing - we'll need to wait to see if TOW is in the list of games to be covered at the LVO.

 kodos wrote:


yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

They ***NEVER*** said any such thing.

 caladancid wrote:


You should, occasionally, let in some air to that hermetically sealed echo chamber.

I quoted for you what the company said- you came back with a different thing. Games Workshop said- the factions in the Forces of Fantasy....are the ones to collect and play." Which, in case you haven't found out, include neither Kislev nor Cathay.

You came back with "nuh uh, they are in the core rulebook!!! Gotcha!!" For the love, please tell me you are just trolling.

The quote you shared can be true in the context of discussing the topic of legacy factions without being exclusionary of further new non-legacy factions.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:


yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

They ***NEVER*** said any such thing.

 caladancid wrote:


You should, occasionally, let in some air to that hermetically sealed echo chamber.

I quoted for you what the company said- you came back with a different thing. Games Workshop said- the factions in the Forces of Fantasy....are the ones to collect and play." Which, in case you haven't found out, include neither Kislev nor Cathay.

You came back with "nuh uh, they are in the core rulebook!!! Gotcha!!" For the love, please tell me you are just trolling.

The quote you shared can be true in the context of discussing the topic of legacy factions without being exclusionary of further new non-legacy factions.

Also, for however long it takes to get all of the FoF/RH factions out (potentially 12-18 mths) they are the ones to collect an play, since collecting and playing Kislev/Cathay is somewhat hard before they are released!

Unlike the old WFB races people don’t have vast existing collections of them (well, some might have a bit of Kislev I guess) and GW are clearly not going to creat rules for two new races before they have something to sell themselves. And getting out the old WFB armies that they did have to provide rules for on launch is clearly the priority.

Dudeface wrote:


I doubt old world will get much more than a token "loose video non-announcement via artwork and noises" so soon after launch.

To get technical, LVO happens on the launch. The release date is literally 3 days into LVO.

 Overread wrote:
Lets also not forget Covid, Global shipping disaster and Cost of Living all reared their heads during the life of this project.


It might well be what GW envisioned at the start of this project is VERY different to what they have now. Perhaps at one time they were going to re-design all the core armies and then BOOM a bunch of delays and cost increases and suddenly those resources are eaten up by other elements of their company.

It's one reason GW rarely lets us know things are in development until they are at the point of starting marketing to build up toward sales. Because so so sooo much can happen over a products development cycle that can change the product from what was pitched at the start.


Even though GW are big they are not without budget limits and their size is spread over many product lines. Each one screaming for more resources.

So, you agree with us naysayers then? Because this has been the argument that posters like Tneva call ridiculous.

I'm not saying yay nor nay just that some of the plans might well have changed and the order things come in might be different to their original plan.

It's impossible for us to know - it could be all going exactly as they planned or might be totally different.

I’ll be shocked if we see Cathay in the next 5 years. And that’s well past my Kickstarter threshold for goodwill.

I'm sure the mods will still agree there isn't rampant negativity on these forums after this thread dies.

No product can be knocked up, produced and distributed to the scale with their limitations in under 12 months alongside the continued developments in their other product ranges.

Honestly the anti-wtfever GW does this week crowd seem to have drunk a little extra out their 3d printer tanks and seem to be just spouting random stuff.

Overread is spot on, we will never know what happened behind the scenes and how much was intentional vs situational.

Dudeface wrote:
I'm sure the mods will still agree there isn't rampant negativity on these forums after this thread dies.

No product can be knocked up, produced and distributed to the scale with their limitations in under 12 months alongside the continued developments in their other product ranges.

Honestly the anti-wtfever GW does this week crowd seem to have drunk a little extra out their 3d printer tanks and seem to be just spouting random stuff.

Overread is spot on, we will never know what happened behind the scenes and how much was intentional vs situational.

Exalted.

There's a ton of people just making gak up to fit their narrative, and they're twisting themselves into pretzels to convince us this is a 'low-effort' affair. All because, what, they don't understand what happens when they can't see it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 triplegrim wrote:


The internet, fb groups and social media has made playing strangers more common. The reach of my games early 2000s was my friends and the odd tournament. Have to be honest it felt like a chore to meet a new fellow nerd and listen to him rattle off all his 'brilliant house rules'. Half of which were not fixing half the problems they were creating.

Having strict and clear rules pregame reduces endless feelbad arguments at the table with strangers, mostlynin situ where both wants to jockey for the immediate reward and where the more socially normal player usually ends up bending over for the more socially inept (removed - no, just no.), setting awful precedents.

These Tomb Kings were designed in 1999 or close to it. The Old World has had one heck of a development time.

Your sarcasm isn't evidence.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Project plan:

Year 1: Panic about the joke an intern posted about the square bases aimed at mantic
Year 2: Show off loads of stuff to do with a computer game
Year 3: Argue with AoS bosses about which mini's they can't use
Year 4: Dig out the old moulds and put together a rulebook based on 8 existing rulebooks.

I regret that I have but one Exalt to give!

Cyel wrote:
Year 5: create a FOMO scheme based on artificial scarcity to sell old models at premium prices in a matter of hours

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period...

We've been over this. Writing lore for an established time period in an existing setting is nowhere near creating an entirely new one - and even then, just how much actually new lore are you expecting to see in this release, as opposed to reusing the history of each faction that has been reprinted a dozen times, plus maybe a few new throwaway snippets? Except, of course, that they can cut off the backstory sooner because of the 'historical' nature of the project. Please stop trying to use this as an excuse, because it is no more work than they would do for any other game at this point.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...designed and made multiple brand new miniatures...

But fewer than previous starter sets. Fewer than Legions Imperialis at launch. Fewer than Horus Heresy at launch. I'm yet to see anyone explain how that is reasonable given that everything else they had to do (make books, physically produce models, distribution etc) for the launch is no different to those games.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...found and retooled old stuff...

And gave people the privelege of paying modern prices for them despite their age and comparative quality, and the fact that their main overheads are no longer a factor. There is no valid justification for that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...figured out what the rules would be...

Again, the comparison to Legions Imperialis is an apt one. They had to do the exact same thing there, with the exact same basis of pulling rules ideas from older versions of the same game, the exact same need to write a few new lore snippets for an established setting for it, and an even longer time gap between LI and the last version of Epic, undoubtably with the same issue of a completely different team.

 Overread wrote:
Lets also not forget Covid, Global shipping disaster and Cost of Living all reared their heads during the life of this project.

I think we need to stop trying to use Covid as an excuse for GW given how long it has been and how many other miniatures companies don't seem to have the same problems. If they havn't got their metaphorical [Redacted] together by now, what are they playing at?

 Overread wrote:
It's one reason GW rarely lets us know things are in development until they are at the point of starting marketing to build up toward sales.

And yet they announced TOW nearly five years ago. If it was that early in its life, why did they announce it then at all? The only answer I can come up with stems back to Gimgamgoo's list I quoted earlier; GW saw that RnF fantasy was doing fine outside of their ecosystem and tried to dampen that success by promising something they had no concrete plans for, to try and get old WHFB players to put aside their money and wait. For the exact reasons you yourself cite, they shouldn't have been announcing it until *much* further into development.

 Overread wrote:
Even though GW are big they are not without budget limits and their size is spread over many product lines. Each one screaming for more resources.

Then perhaps they shouldn't have embarked on another one if it was going to end up as half-arsed as this. If it started out as more and something changed, tell the customers that. GW chose to have everything shrouded in secrecy. They chose to make a big announcement but then keep their (potential) paying customers in the dark for over four years. So why should we make excuses for them when the result is underwhelming? Of course people were going to form certain expectations about the release, because GW gave them nothing to go on.

And when it finally materialises, what do we see? A tonne of recycled old models with no accounting for their age in the pricing, a pittance of new ones that are mostly characters, but plenty of expensive books splitting the rules up in a way to maximise profit. It is not a good look - and the now-standard GW release strategy of minimal production and FOMO driven pre-orders (I mean for goodness sake, a queue to even get into the website in order to join the actual queue?!) for a greater chance of selling all of it makes it worse.

After the way WHFB was treated, GW should be bending over backwards to get old players to come back to their brand if they're going to try and revive it, and we as consumers should be holding them to that kind of standard. If the project's focus shifted or the whole thing has been downsized but they arn't going to explain that to us, why should we care beyond the final result, and make a bunch of assumptions or excuses in order to justify it for them? They don't owe us anything, but we don't owe them anything either.

Based on just the facts at hand, TOW has failed to meet the same standards as even other specialist games in terms of release, and presents itself not as a carefully crafted revival of a beloved old game, but a shameful attempt to cash in on nostalgia for that game as much as possible. Whether or not that was the original intent or who ultimately made the decisions that led it there is irrelevent: GW won't tell people anything about it, so we can only take the release at face value.

Manglers Squigs on 50x75s

Hang on - haven't Mangler Squigs always been on a round base?

Wayniac wrote:
As expected, I asked GW if they had any idea of the release for other factions, and got the standard "When we have info we'll post it to warcom!" marketing BS answer.

Dear gods. That isn't a BS answer. Just because you sent an email, they're not going to share the undisclosed release schedule with you. Marketing happens on a schedule. It doesn't happen simply because someone asks.

Rules on pre order, you tube crowd reading from books, I guess the first FAQ/Errata. drops anytime now

 MalusCalibur wrote:

I think we need to stop trying to use Covid as an excuse for GW given how long it has been and how many other miniatures companies don't seem to have the same problems. If they havn't got their metaphorical [Redacted] together by now, what are they playing at?

Other miniature firms are still reeling from Covid in their own ways.

Privateer Press's Warcaster was almost dead on arrival even though they got 2 kickstarters funded and delivered on time (an amazing feat in itself for miniature Kickstarters in general). They have their own suit of problems but I'm sure the Covid situation and rapid riding of metal prices are what's forced them into going the 3D printed pathway (as well as some other issues).

Mantic Games are also jumping into 3D printing - I suspect again partly because of rising material costs.

Dystopian Wars was cancelled at the start of the Pandemic and they used the time to invest into plastics instead. Granted they've grown fairly steadily, though they also have Wayland Games behind them so solid miniature sales have likely helped a lot for their investments. However they did lose at least a year of natural game growth and are only now just starting to market that they'll be doing the ground game and haven't touch on the other Spartan owned IP they have.

In general Covid, shipping and cost of living are still very much with is as a rollercoaster of impacts on the market. Yes the miniature market did really well during that time, but at the same time it also messed up a lot of things. Firms had to shut down; change plans; shift things around and are still having to adjust. Heck you could even throw in that GW doing really well during and after has had a negative impact on other firms because whilst GW growing means more market, it also means more people focusing on GW over other firms.

 MalusCalibur wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...that they came up with the lore and narrative for a different setting/time period...

We've been over this. Writing lore for an established time period in an existing setting is nowhere near creating an entirely new one - and even then, just how much actually new lore are you expecting to see in this release, as opposed to reusing the history of each faction that has been reprinted a dozen times, plus maybe a few new throwaway snippets? Except, of course, that they can cut off the backstory sooner because of the 'historical' nature of the project. Please stop trying to use this as an excuse, because it is no more work than they would do for any other game at this point.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...designed and made multiple brand new miniatures...

But fewer than previous starter sets. Fewer than Legions Imperialis at launch. Fewer than Horus Heresy at launch. I'm yet to see anyone explain how that is reasonable given that everything else they had to do (make books, physically produce models, distribution etc) for the launch is no different to those games.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...found and retooled old stuff...

And gave people the privelege of paying modern prices for them despite their age and comparative quality, and the fact that their main overheads are no longer a factor. There is no valid justification for that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...figured out what the rules would be...

Again, the comparison to Legions Imperialis is an apt one. They had to do the exact same thing there, with the exact same basis of pulling rules ideas from older versions of the same game, the exact same need to write a few new lore snippets for an established setting for it, and an even longer time gap between LI and the last version of Epic, undoubtably with the same issue of a completely different team.

You seem to have taken what I said out of its context just to argue against something that wasn't being talked about. Price has no relevance to the time it took to make this, and the amount of miniatures doesn't make a difference when regardless of it they needed 1 miniature or 20 to coincide with the release, it would still take those miniatures 2-3 years to be ready. Being based on previous lore and rules doesn't mean they didn't have to go through their usual process at the least, either - which from what I can find, new editions get started right after the last one releases.

It's strange how so many are extremely eager to claim this is a very low-effort release that they must have done pretty much nothing with for 4 years because this should only have taken them 12 months at the very most, yet that sort of thing wasn't spouted about Necromunda, Legions Imperialis, Titanicus or Aeronautica at their releases despite them being based on previous games, rules and lore too, and even the miniatures being shrunk-down 40k models in several cases.

Somehow the Horus Heresy epic game being rumoured in 2021 (playtesting at that stage) and therefore likely having took about 3 years at least is perfectly fine, but when TOW was announced right when they started it (with only a month and half left of the year) and then takes about 4 years to release, that's just terrible and there's no way a game could take that long, 12 months at the most!.

Not sure if it's been brought up yet (also wow I haven't been on Dakka in years!) but Mountain Miniatures have done a stream today talking about TOW.

The highlight (for me) is the reveal that the rules for the legacy armies are as fleshed out as the rules for the core factions in e.g. Forces of Fantasy. This means decent unit rules, magic items, spell lores and unique army rules.

Seems that aside from the Arcane Journals there's very little difference between core factions and legacy factions. Just the fact that one is allowed in GW tournaments and the other isn't.

Mountain Minis and Miniwargaming have the legacy army rules, they've mentioned they've already filmed all faction reviews (including legacy) and have played Lizards vs Dwarfs.

It's a nice surprise given the less than hopeful tone of the WarCom article.

That’s really interesting thanks for the heads up on that. Won’t rebase anything not allowed in tourneys but glad I’ll get to enjoy playing fun games with them.

leopard wrote:
don't forget how long the extensive play testing and feedback plus resolution of issues and repeating the cycle will have taken...

Can't tell if serious or taking the piss, I'll assume the latter

Aren73 wrote:


Seems that aside from the Arcane Journals there's very little difference between core factions and legacy factions. Just the fact that one is allowed in GW tournaments and the other isn't.

For now. Arcane Journals aren't the only form through which core armies will be updated. The concern many have is that the legacy armies will fall behind as the core armies get updated.

It's nice to see Mountain Miniatures (probably the foremost WHFB influencers covering both old editions and fan rewrites) so optimistic about it. But sounds like the rulebook is again a scattered mess of nested rules, exceptions to exceptions, redundant fringe abilities (why are there two version of Flammable?), and an utterly worthless index.

Well my friends have now entered the "Well, this is a success... so clearly they're going to scrap it all and just do 9th Ed WHFB instead, with Dark Elves and Lizardmen!" phase of cope.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well my friends have now entered the "Well, this is a success... so clearly they're going to scrap it all and just do 9th Ed WHFB instead, with Dark Elves and Lizardmen!" phase of cope.

Oh, yeah... WAY too early for that.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:


The internet, fb groups and social media has made playing strangers more common. The reach of my games early 2000s was my friends and the odd tournament. Have to be honest it felt like a chore to meet a new fellow nerd and listen to him rattle off all his 'brilliant house rules'. Half of which were not fixing half the problems they were creating.

Having strict and clear rules pregame reduces endless feelbad arguments at the table with strangers, mostlynin situ where both wants to jockey for the immediate reward and where the more socially normal player usually ends up bending over for the more socially inept (removed - no, just no.), setting awful precedents.

These Tomb Kings were designed in 1999 or close to it. The Old World has had one heck of a development time.

Your sarcasm isn't evidence.

I dont even know where you're trying to go with that comment.

Established 40k players flat out caught at cheating in top games at tournaments shows the need for clear and consise rules for even casuals when playing people outside your group. If people will cheat mechanically, they'll squeeze and argue to get the rules swing their way too. Its my belief this is more common in the 2020s than late 90s due to the game being more globalized now. God bless you if you never experienced this. Please let me know your decret.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's nice to see Mountain Miniatures (probably the foremost WHFB influencers covering both old editions and fan rewrites) so optimistic about it. But sounds like the rulebook is again a scattered mess of nested rules, exceptions to exceptions, redundant fringe abilities (why are there two version of Flammable?), and an utterly worthless index.

In a way I'm glad it's like this. It might be clunky but at least it has some charm and soul to it, unlike 40k or AoS. Generally I'm happy with what I've seen, it's only the legacy rules which had me worried. Sure, I'll have to search through pages of the rulebook for references and hop between rules linking to other rules but it's fine with me, as long as I like the game I'm playing.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well my friends have now entered the "Well, this is a success... so clearly they're going to scrap it all and just do 9th Ed WHFB instead, with Dark Elves and Lizardmen!" phase of cope.

Oh, yeah... WAY too early for that.

Cope and denial is a hell of a drug.

We don't even know it really was a success. It sold out the launch wave, sure, but we don't know if it's overwhelming demand, production throughput limitations, or intentional underproduction to induce FOMO. The available evidence would indicate that it was a very small production run relative to a lot of other recent releases. Its been a while since I've seen such heavy limitations and allocations, even the holiday battleforces didn't seem to have such limited stock availability and lasted longer than the TOW stock.

"charm" and "soul" aren't a reasonable excuse for a badly laid out book and redundant rules. Again.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well my friends have now entered the "Well, this is a success... so clearly they're going to scrap it all and just do 9th Ed WHFB instead, with Dark Elves and Lizardmen!" phase of cope.

Oh, yeah... WAY too early for that.

Cope and denial is a hell of a drug.

We don't even know it really was a success. It sold out the launch wave, sure, but we don't know if it's overwhelming demand, production throughput limitations, or intentional underproduction to induce FOMO. The available evidence would indicate that it was a very small production run relative to a lot of other recent releases. Its been a while since I've seen such heavy limitations and allocations, even the holiday battleforces didn't seem to have such limited stock availability and lasted longer than the TOW stock.

Selling out is selling out. GW can't sell more than what they've got so if they've sold out on a lot of lines it doesn't matter if it was a tiny release or a massive one; it means they've sold out of what they've predicted to sell, put into production and put on the shelves.

I think GW might have been stricter with limits on this one simply because its a new game and there's nothing else on the market for it; whilst for something like Holiday Battleforces those are purely a short term sales boon. Everything in them is already on general sale so if a customer misses the holiday boxed set they can still get all the contents from GW anyway. They are missing a discount rather than a product.

IT might also just be part of GW and 3rd party stores policies to try and discourage scalpers from harming the market and getting as many products into as many individual customer hands so hitting a broad market sweep rather than letting those with deeper pockets steal the thunder from the launch too much. Whilst we cry scalpers as a huge blame, I'm fairly sure those who can afford 3 or 4 boxed sets in one go can also be to blame as they are likely way more numerous than the scalpers and as a result those multi-box buyers can mean that they eat up stock that could have gone to different people.


Only the fullness of time and how sales are when things get into general circulation and when the "its new" wears off a little. This is still a very new project and even if it sells well anyone shoudl know it will take time to rise up. Even AoS and 40K have taken time to rise from dips in sales now and then and grow/mature as games.