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 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
"charm" and "soul" aren't a reasonable excuse for a badly laid out book and redundant rules. Again.

And yet it definitely draws me in better than the streamlined and optimised AoS and 40k.

I'd rather have fun rules laid out badly than boring rules laid out well. I'm glad they didn't put presentation above a decently crafted game, which this seems to be.

Come back to me when we've both played 20+ games and maybe we'll both have some new insight, maybe then I'll agree with you but for now, I see the gameplay and I like it.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder. I'd rather have a clean and well laid out book than a rulebook that has to be marked and tagged just so you have a chance of actually finding what you need.

I absolutely miss the older style of rules where they have a sentence or short paragraph putting some fluff on the abstraction behind the rule before the actual rule text. But that's just like my opinion man.

Going to be honest, the prices for the minis out of the box has kicked a lot of enthusiasm here down.

The change in base size is expensive as well for me with so much fantasy. Probably going to be a new edition before I am done.

The rules so far seem ok, the battle they did to show the game off sucked.
Honestly bad game, the mini wargaming one was a better showing.
Hopefully the game doesn’t become a yolo charge issue.

Will need to get test army’s down, but ehh. So much work on just bases. For hopefully the unit footprints not to be too big for fun movement game.

Otherwise I am glad it’s back, hopefully it’s positive in 6 months time.

 Overread wrote:


it means they've sold out of what they've predicted to sell

We simply don't know that. We don't know what determined their lot size for production or anything like that at all. Their sales estimates are likely built out over a year rather than just a release day estimate - its entirely possible they sell out on day 1 but fail to meet sales projections over an extended period.

They certainly sold out of what they produced and shipped, but that doesn't immediately correlate to it being a roaring success, especially when this community can't go more than 5 minutes between commenting about how GW supposedly has severe production issues and can't produce enough product for their customers. It's tough to make an argument that they are meeting numbers when they are also supposedly struggling to produce goods in meaningful quantities.

Ideally, I would assume the size of the initial production run would be scaled to meet ot exceed the breakeven point on investment into the project (otherwise what's the point of not producing enough goods to achieve profitability?), but that isn't the same as meeting projected sales, that's just setting a target for achieving ROI.

It's probably worth pointing out that while ToW has sold well, it hasn't sold out completely. The Tomb kings box is still in stock in several regions including America. The rulebook and the Bretonnia box have sold out pretty much everywhere as has all the resin but that's probably because it's mostly shipping from the UK.
This isn't a Cursed City or Indomitus situation.

We might learn more in the next financial report. They reported Dominion as their most successful fantasy launch ever. It will be interesting to see if ToW beats it.

I would kind of expect it to. Not every AoS player bought Dominion, you're basically comparing the sales of a single product to that of an entire game system.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I would kind of expect it to. Not every AoS player bought Dominion, you're basically comparing the sales of a single product to that of an entire game system.

But GW are kind of starting from scratch again. Each edition of AoS has sold better than the last.
How many of those total war players are actually going to bother putting the time and money into playing a table top game? I'm sure GW has no idea, hence the low supply.
Even though Dominion did well, they overproduced it. I doubt GW are going to make that kind of bet again.

I sold off my massive unbuilt Empire and half built High Elves a couple years ago.
I still have Lizardmen and vampire counts but they will be the PDF army list only and not sure if I will bother doing anything with the armies.

I still have all my O&G with >300 NGs and even 4 snotling pump wagons.
Now for these guys I have absolutely no issue in changing bases and realise it will take months with everything else I have going on.
The army has enough variety that it never gets old with hordes, semi-elite, fast cav, heavy artillery, monsters, or a balanced approach.

For the first time in years I feel really hopeful for a GW game as I loved WHFB.

I’m making a rebasing guide in excel. Have 5 of the 9 armies done. I’ll share when it’s completed. Probably won’t do the legacy armies since they won’t be allowed in tourneys.

beast_gts wrote:

Manglers Squigs on 50x75s

Hang on - haven't Mangler Squigs always been on a round base?

no, if I recall they were released some time around end times?

 McDougall Designs wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

Manglers Squigs on 50x75s

Hang on - haven't Mangler Squigs always been on a round base?

no, if I recall they were released some time around end times?

Like Night Goblin Fanatics, they were round-based: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xl6ypBw0eD4/TswNDijnb3I/AAAAAAAAPDw/hgAnLdT5n_g/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Mangler_squigs_citadel_Games_Workshop.jpg

 McDougall Designs wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

Manglers Squigs on 50x75s

Hang on - haven't Mangler Squigs always been on a round base?

no, if I recall they were released some time around end times?

They were on round bases as you picked a direction and rolled, and had no flanks or rear.

Simliar to NG fanatics who rolled a random direction and moved - but they were more of a damage causing token than an actual model for your opponent to interact with.

Squig hoppers were on square bases as they ranked up when in combat.

I expect this Sunday to say that next weeks pre orders are the second wave of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings stuff. I expect February to announce the next factions coming.

Rebasing guide compiled today for everyone with old armies for main factions:

Unit type / Old base size / New Base size / Rebase required or not.

You can zoom in to your army to make it easier to read if needed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KmYEa0r7tr-6fuHJRVfUQayMa7nl_h6/view?usp=sharing

Chikout wrote:
It's probably worth pointing out that while ToW has sold well, it hasn't sold out completely. The Tomb kings box is still in stock in several regions including America. The rulebook and the Bretonnia box have sold out pretty much everywhere as has all the resin but that's probably because it's mostly shipping from the UK.

the models no one wanted to by 10 years ago, bundled with a shiny new model that is controversial (as it does not fit in the theme for lot of people) not sell well is not a real surprise

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

They ***NEVER*** said any such thing.

In the very beginning ~8 months ago, that we start with the Borderprincess and the factions present there and will end in Praag and therefore Kislev will be present when that happens
but time will tell

 kodos wrote:

Chikout wrote:
It's probably worth pointing out that while ToW has sold well, it hasn't sold out completely. The Tomb kings box is still in stock in several regions including America. The rulebook and the Bretonnia box have sold out pretty much everywhere as has all the resin but that's probably because it's mostly shipping from the UK.

the models no one wanted to by 10 years ago, bundled with a shiny new model that is controversial (as it does not fit in the theme for lot of people) not sell well is not a real surprise

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

yet adding that the designers said they are going to release Kislev when they reach Praag and now have said that this event is rather far in future

They ***NEVER*** said any such thing.

In the very beginning ~8 months ago, that we start with the Borderprincess and the factions present there and will end in Praag and therefore Kislev will be present when that happens
but time will tell

The first article about the BPs says nothing like that at all.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/07/discover-warhammer-the-old-worlds-ultimate-getaway-for-exiled-lords-and-rotten-princes/

Also, there’s a Kislevite faction *in* the BPs

 nathan2004 wrote:
Rebasing guide compiled today for everyone with old armies for main factions:

Unit type / Old base size / New Base size / Rebase required or not.

You can zoom in to your army to make it easier to read if needed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KmYEa0r7tr-6fuHJRVfUQayMa7nl_h6/view?usp=sharing

Thanks! Nice work.
Just one comment, I think the Bretonian hippogriff was already on 50 mm base, but I'll check when I get home.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Ideally, I would assume the size of the initial production run would be scaled to meet ot exceed the breakeven point on investment into the project (otherwise what's the point of not producing enough goods to achieve profitability?), but that isn't the same as meeting projected sales, that's just setting a target for achieving ROI.

"They're so popular they can't make stuff fast enough to meet demand" is usually an argument of GW defenders.

Who are then unable to explain if a new game can even achieve ROI if GW just keep splitting up an already too small production capacity into more and more product. Isn't any new project a pure loss at that point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The bandwagon has begun


https://maxminishop.com/collections/fantasy-miniatures/fantasy-undead?page=1
Damn, Ushbti for 14€ for 3? I think that's less than what I paid in the Kickstarter.

Actuve wrote:
I expect this Sunday to say that next weeks pre orders are the second wave of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings stuff. I expect February to announce the next factions coming.

GW's usual approach is to leave at least a month between releases for the same system/range. That allows time for anyone on monthly pay to recover their wallet for the next purchase. Generally only 40K/AOS get exceptions to that, and when they do it's typically for smaller releases like MTO or separarely boxed models from a previous bundle.

Next up will be the DA 40K box, Legions Imperialis second wave, and AOS flesheater courts. I would not expect any further TOW releases before February.

No, because keeping fresh releases coming is a staple of their business model and keeping a stable of enough things so that each one doesn't get boring is important.

You can see this issue in their Marine line for example. It's obviously their best selling thing, but a while back they were getting to a point where they'd fleshed it out - so HH got plastics and the main range was basically completely redone.

At some point they will have all the marks done in the new larger scale for HH, they will have been back around for all the new chapter upgrades and Terminators etc for the main chapters and all the viable primarchs will be done.

There's only so many times they can redo a line like they did with Primaris and there's only one Heresy they can do.

Having several games gives them more stuff they can do without each one getting to their logical end point.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Rebasing guide compiled today for everyone with old armies for main factions:

Unit type / Old base size / New Base size / Rebase required or not.

You can zoom in to your army to make it easier to read if needed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KmYEa0r7tr-6fuHJRVfUQayMa7nl_h6/view?usp=sharing

looking at the list empire now has to types of griffin a smaller and lager one the larger is the "new" plastic kit and does need a base change, the smaller griffin uses a 50x50 base and is interestingly enough what the old metal count on griffin comes on.

 RustyNumber wrote:
I absolutely miss the older style of rules where they have a sentence or short paragraph putting some fluff on the abstraction behind the rule before the actual rule text. But that's just like my opinion man.

My personal preference is for the rules to be as streamlined as possible so I don't have to carry a giant fecking tomb around with me and spend hours playing my first dozen games because I have to keep flipping back through said tomb (my ideal rulebook is the Epic 40k rulebook, 50 pages in A5 format, can be read in one sitting and tossed into my gaming case no worries). But I could deal with fluff snippets. Especially if they were in italics to make it clear they're not actually part of the rule.

The problem with GW rules is they are just flat out poorly written. There's no fluff or flavour, they're just using too many words to say a thing. It makes them painful to read and there's more than one GW game where I never got beyond the rule-reading part of the game because I got sick of reading the awfully written rules.

I naturally write too many words myself, so I can appreciate that... BUT, if I'm going to publish something, then I damned well go back through and edit out all the superfluous bits, let alone if I was going to charge $50 for said publication.

 nathan2004 wrote:
Rebasing guide compiled today for everyone with old armies for main factions:

Unit type / Old base size / New Base size / Rebase required or not.

You can zoom in to your army to make it easier to read if needed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19KmYEa0r7tr-6fuHJRVfUQayMa7nl_h6/view?usp=sharing

Much obliged, thank you. Looks like I need to rebase my cannon if I want it to be OW-compliant (which I might as well). I had it on a plastic base of indeterminate size, with slots cut for the three gunners' standard square bases. Are crew members now treated as a part of the model?

 MalusCalibur wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Sounds like standard GW game design then!

A year ago I would agree with you but since then my friends managed to convince me to try out Kill Team. I didn't want to, because I thought that's GW design, players make trivial decisions and then just fall asleep rolling dice for hours on end,waiting for something they can do again.

I was wrong. In KT most time is spent on non-trivial decision making and resolution is very quick with just a single roll of a few dice per player in most cases. And even resolution is also riddled with little decision points, like for example in close combat after rolling attacks players alternate assigning them as hits or parries, and you can absolutely make good or bad decisions with that.

So yeah, GW are totally capable of designing a game that revolves around players being active decision makers not passive performers of long and monotonous, non-interactive processes.

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Didn't you have a post 6 months back to the tune of "did people really play 6th edition like this?" - cue video of people shuffling infantry across the table for two turns, charging, and then rolling lots of dice to determine what happens.
The answer was always "typically, yes."

Given the extent of the rules and the time to play Fantasy shouldn't really be a beer and pretzels game - but arguably its only ever seriously worked with that mentality. There aren't that many decisions to be made. Most strategy is just "do you know the trick, yes/no". Beyond writing a completely different game its unclear how TOW could be radically different.

You are absolutely right! Perception changes with every new experience.

Wfb at that time (before wargaming conpetition or the golden age of board games showed how different it can be) was a game that I loved dearly. But I hardly had anything to compared it to.

A quarter of a century later it is not enough, though. The world of tabletop games design made enormous leaps forward


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To sum up my stance - I liked the game a lot (started in 5th) but even then I expected improvements with every new edition. Like, for example, making the arduous process of resolution faster, so that it isn't a 20min long pause in the game every turn or introducing more strategy.

But the game went in exactly the opposite way of what I hoped for and, apparently still does.

So my opinion " I liked 6th edition but expected evolution not stagnation or steps back" isn't that much of a contradiction

 kodos wrote:

In the very beginning ~8 months ago, that we start with the Borderprincess and the factions present there and will end in Praag and therefore Kislev will be present when that happens
but time will tell

No they didn't. You're welcome to prove me wrong - by providing a link or a photo or any sort of documentation that indicates that the release of Kislev was tied to the Siege of Praag. They never made that connection at all.

 xttz wrote:

Actuve wrote:
I expect this Sunday to say that next weeks pre orders are the second wave of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings stuff. I expect February to announce the next factions coming.

GW's usual approach is to leave at least a month between releases for the same system/range. That allows time for anyone on monthly pay to recover their wallet for the next purchase. Generally only 40K/AOS get exceptions to that, and when they do it's typically for smaller releases like MTO or separarely boxed models from a previous bundle.
Next up will be the DA 40K box, Legions Imperialis second wave, and AOS flesheater courts. I would not expect any further TOW releases before February.

I agree. I think TOW will be on pace for once per month releases. Next month will be wave 2 of Bretonnia/Tomb Kings, March will be (in my opinion) the first wave of the next 2 factions, April will be wave 2 of those factions, etc.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cyel wrote:

 MalusCalibur wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Sounds like standard GW game design then!

A year ago I would agree with you but since then my friends managed to convince me to try out Kill Team. I didn't want to, because I thought that's GW design, players make trivial decisions and then just fall asleep rolling dice for hours on end,waiting for something they can do again.

I was wrong. In KT most time is spent on non-trivial decision making and resolution is very quick with just a single roll of a few dice per player in most cases. And even resolution is also riddled with little decision points, like for example in close combat after rolling attacks players alternate assigning them as hits or parries, and you can absolutely make good or bad decisions with that.

So yeah, GW are totally capable of designing a game that revolves around players being active decision makers not passive performers of long and monotonous, non-interactive processes.

BuT sHaPeS iNsTeAd Of NuMbErS = aWfUl GaMe DeSiGn!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I am currently watching the battle report from GW and it doesn't look too great. It looks like they move units pretty quickly and then the dice autopilot turns on and they roll and roll and re-roll, and roll again, charge range, fear tests, hits, wounds, saves, regeneration, wards... Looks terribly boring tbh to see a game where players are needed for like 20% of playing time, and the rest of the time they just perform the menial role of being living random number generators for the game.

Didn't you have a post 6 months back to the tune of "did people really play 6th edition like this?" - cue video of people shuffling infantry across the table for two turns, charging, and then rolling lots of dice to determine what happens.
The answer was always "typically, yes."

Given the extent of the rules and the time to play Fantasy shouldn't really be a beer and pretzels game - but arguably its only ever seriously worked with that mentality. There aren't that many decisions to be made. Most strategy is just "do you know the trick, yes/no". Beyond writing a completely different game its unclear how TOW could be radically different.

Hmm.

You're kinda right. Somehow Conquest and ASOIAF have managed to make rank and file games that aren't just beer and pretzel RNG dice-fests, so sophisticated and tactical rank and file games are certainly possible to design, but thinking about it... yeah WHFB was always kind of an exercise in "square bashing", dice chugging, and model removal first and foremost. I do wonder though if that wasnt to some extent the result of game size being too large relative to the table size. There was never enough room for sufficient terrain to make maneuver truly tactical, and too often both sides of the table would basically have their entire army more or less lined up shoulder to shoulder with no real room to do anything other than to move forward - flank attacks and rear attacks had rules but I never encountered them myself and it always seemed practically impossible to actually pull off. Even then, if you did pull it off once combat was joined that was basically it - the meaningful decisionmaking was gone and it was just dice chugging, RNG, and resolution modifiers, etc. There wasn't much else to do after that point.

The most funny things I found in the army books yet.

Empire can have infinite amounts of Lvl 4 sorcerers (6 at 2000).
Dwarf Gyros with up to 6 a unit. Which can drop 6D6 bombs AP1 and additionally shoot 6D3+6 S5 AP2 shots. Oh and can flee and shoot... XD

I was quite excited for this until I saw it was based around a significant number of veteran sculpts (at least from what I saw, open to be corrected).

I get it - allow fans to use existing models and get something out sooner rather than later. It's commendable and I can almost see it as something of an apology letter.

However, I was looking for a total re-fresh. I don't own any fantasy armies (a few scattering of models) and I don't want to buy 20yo sculpts for a new game, especially when they're so expensive. I'll probably start Conquest LAK instead.

Edit: If they wanted to sell me 2003's models, they should offer them at 2003's prices.