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 Hellebore wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
And what about chaos warriors, is there an option for "Lord on Karkadrak" for example?
Is there pics of the new range in the evil book, or will they bring back the "nostalgia" models of 2021

No. They were very explicit that models released for factions in Age of Sigmar would not have rules in TOW.

There are no Greater Daemons in TOW, so moot point on the bloodthirster. If you're using the legacy army list then.... kinda who cares? Use whatever mini you want that will fit on the specified base.

How are they releasing a daemons pdf without the daemons? GDs are integral to that army, it would be ridiculous to release an army list for daemons missing anything that came out after AoS.

I really can't see how they could justify releasing those legacy pdf army lists with very little in them...

The Daemons legacy faction pdf will presumably have Greater Daemons in it, but Daemons are not a supported faction so GW are not releasing TOW models for them and they apparently won’t get Special Characters.

GW are not going to advertise any particular models for Daemons and, as the response you quoted noted, it doesn’t really matter which GD model you use as long as it’s on the right base.

 Darnok wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
How are they releasing a daemons pdf without the daemons? GDs are integral to that army, it would be ridiculous to release an army list for daemons missing anything that came out after AoS.



I really can't see how they could justify releasing those legacy pdf army lists with very little in them...

Not sure if serious, or just missing the sarcasm tag...

Daemons had full armylists and even complete books of their own long before AoS. They also have a full range for everything that was around at the end of 8th edition.

Would an inclusion of AoS Daemons be cool? Definitely. It just will not happen anytime soon, GW has made that very clear. This does not mean you can not play Daemons with everything else - and that's what the legacy list is for.

Did you not see what I was quoting? That TOW would have NO greater daemons?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
And what about chaos warriors, is there an option for "Lord on Karkadrak" for example?
Is there pics of the new range in the evil book, or will they bring back the "nostalgia" models of 2021

No. They were very explicit that models released for factions in Age of Sigmar would not have rules in TOW.

There are no Greater Daemons in TOW, so moot point on the bloodthirster. If you're using the legacy army list then.... kinda who cares? Use whatever mini you want that will fit on the specified base.

How are they releasing a daemons pdf without the daemons? GDs are integral to that army, it would be ridiculous to release an army list for daemons missing anything that came out after AoS.

I really can't see how they could justify releasing those legacy pdf army lists with very little in them...

The Daemons legacy faction pdf will presumably have Greater Daemons in it, but Daemons are not a supported faction so GW are not releasing TOW models for them and they apparently won’t get Special Characters.

GW are not going to advertise any particular models for Daemons and, as the response you quoted noted, it doesn’t really matter which GD model you use as long as it’s on the right base.

Well colour me confused - how can ToW not have GDs and also still have them at the same time?

 Hellebore wrote:

Well colour me confused - how can ToW not have GDs and also still have them at the same time?

It can have an entry for a smallish mini with a 60mm base... was it 60mm? Which you won't fit the modern sculpt onto.

Essentially make it where to play the GD you need the old sculpt or to house rule.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Darnok wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
How are they releasing a daemons pdf without the daemons? GDs are integral to that army, it would be ridiculous to release an army list for daemons missing anything that came out after AoS.



I really can't see how they could justify releasing those legacy pdf army lists with very little in them...

Not sure if serious, or just missing the sarcasm tag...

Daemons had full armylists and even complete books of their own long before AoS. They also have a full range for everything that was around at the end of 8th edition.

Would an inclusion of AoS Daemons be cool? Definitely. It just will not happen anytime soon, GW has made that very clear. This does not mean you can not play Daemons with everything else - and that's what the legacy list is for.

Did you not see what I was quoting? That TOW would have NO greater daemons?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
And what about chaos warriors, is there an option for "Lord on Karkadrak" for example?
Is there pics of the new range in the evil book, or will they bring back the "nostalgia" models of 2021

No. They were very explicit that models released for factions in Age of Sigmar would not have rules in TOW.

There are no Greater Daemons in TOW, so moot point on the bloodthirster. If you're using the legacy army list then.... kinda who cares? Use whatever mini you want that will fit on the specified base.

How are they releasing a daemons pdf without the daemons? GDs are integral to that army, it would be ridiculous to release an army list for daemons missing anything that came out after AoS.

I really can't see how they could justify releasing those legacy pdf army lists with very little in them...

The Daemons legacy faction pdf will presumably have Greater Daemons in it, but Daemons are not a supported faction so GW are not releasing TOW models for them and they apparently won’t get Special Characters.

GW are not going to advertise any particular models for Daemons and, as the response you quoted noted, it doesn’t really matter which GD model you use as long as it’s on the right base.

Well colour me confused - how can ToW not have GDs and also still have them at the same time?

If you’re one of the 9 Core Factions (Empire, Brets, Dwarfs, HE, WE, TK, WoC, BM, O&G):

-You get rules in the two hardbacks plus Arcane Journals with Special Characters, variant army lists and extra magic items
-GW will produce TOW specific kits separate from AoS ones (mostly old WFB kits, plus some new one)
-GW will market them as TOW armies
-further rules updates/additions as game progresses

If you’re one of the 7 Legacy Factions (DoC, DE, LM, OK, VC, Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs):
-you get initial pdf rules for everything valid as of the end of 8th, to the same standard as the hardbacks.
-no TOW specific models
-not marketed as TOW factions
-no further rules updated.

Daemons are a legacy faction. They should get rules for everything they could use in 8th (other than possibly ET units), which will presumably include GDs (but not any thing in AoS that wasn’t in WFB). However GW will not market them as a TOW army, will not make TOW specific models for them, and will not further update their rules.

So if you want to play daemons, you can download the pdf, gather whatever daemon models you have and play. But GW will not specify either way which models those are, just a description, wargear and base size.

Dudeface wrote:
Essentially make it where to play the GD you need the old sculpt or to house rule.

Which would be incredibly stupid. Doubly so if it applied to every GD except the Bloodthirster.

Assuming the legacy PDFs don't include special characters, in line with what's been described with the two army list books, what would TOW Daemons lose out on compared to AOS Daemons?

Off the top of my head, I can potentially only think of some of the specialised character models - I don't think any units go missing, do they?

Not having a specifically labelled ToW GD models for sale is pretty irrelevant. AoS isn't different enough from ToW to prevent you using those models.

If ToW has a unit entry for a GD, then GDs will be used in ToW.

It's gonna drive me up the wall if they have 1 giant GD and 3 midget ones.

TOW does come with specific base sizes for each unit, though - there is a valid question about whether the pretty-darned-big plastic GDs will fit on whatever those are.

 Dysartes wrote:
TOW does come with specific base sizes for each unit, though - there is a valid question about whether the pretty-darned-big plastic GDs will fit on whatever those are.

They do go pretty large though (e.g. Settra is now on 100x150) and the FW GDs were valid WFB models at a similar size.

Apparently some models like the Treeman have a choice (size for old metal and size for 8th Ed plastic) so they may do the same for GDs.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I mean, at the end of the day, a sale is a sale.

That depends who's looking

I have seen it suggested, and knowing GW's internal toxicity it wouldn't surprise me, that the reason for drawing theline is that kits for models in AoS would be sales attributed to AoS, so from the point of view of scoring maximum financial success for internal metrics, they need the old kits to claim the sales.

(Also would not be surprising because isolating performance for things where there's no natural demarcation is a problem I have to deal with every year).

Given the legacy pdfs are getting zero support regardless, that leaves you with the freedom to build whatever you want.

Unless they're going to say GDs have to be on 50mm bases, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a creative way to base them on the right sized base.

Only the plastic GUO has a large enough footprint to make minimum base size a challenge.

 Hellebore wrote:
Unless they're going to say GDs have to be on 50mm bases, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a creative way to base them on the right sized base.

The obvious fear is that three GD's will be on 50x50 and the Bloodthirster will be on 50x100 (or larger) because that was the final state of things in 8th

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The obvious fear is that three GD's will be on 50x50 and the Bloodthirster will be on 50x100 (or larger) because that was the final state of things in 8th

This is exactly my point.

I look at Total War Warhammer 3, a game that has Be'lakor... and it's the old Be'lakor miniature. The GDs are all the big plastic ones, but Be'lakor is the old small metal version.

I fear that, from GW's perspective, the current GUO, LOC and KOD are "Age of Sigmar" models, which makes zero sense. They're just Greater Daemons. Daemons have been GW game agnostic for as long as I've been playing.

Fayric wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
I doubt anyone would care but I wonder if GW is keeping anything with stormcast/aos trophy bits strictly in aos?


Rockgut troggoths for example have a stormcast trophy necklace option, many warriors of chaos have similar bits, etc

This is probably another reason why GW are rereleasing e.g. the metal stone trolls and 6th Ed Chaos Warriors- for consistency with not having AoS specific decorations like SCE helmets

Baltasar Gelt had a "stormcast helm" in Fantasy Battle era, so it would not be impossible to craft one even in the "the old World"
Seriously though, the stormcast stuff littering some kits sounds as the most plausible reason what models they want to use. Good thinking.

And as some pople have mentioned, it most likely dont matter what models you use.

If you stop to think about it, stormcast were always destined to be released for WFB 9th edition. So was any of those early AoS armies that were released in the first year or two. Stormcast, Khorne, fyreslayers & Kharadron overlords are the big ones. Its also entirely possible things like big morathi was 8th ed/end time sculpts that never saw release.

GW have been adamant for years it takes them 3-5 years to fully develop, design and release a new plastic kit. If the rumours are true and they had most of 9th edition ready to go, and then it was pulled for the rush end times book run & to start working on AoS behind the scenes, they just didn't have enough time to develop all those new mini ranges to have them ready to roll out in the first year.

Of course, perhaps the rumours are incorrect and they knew years before the end times that they would work on AoS. But the early days of AoS content shows that doesn't appear to the be the case.

There was also a lot of leaks (from Hastings on warseer) that 9th edition would include the clockwork soldiers of the empire (stormcast), and then we had the battle of blackfire pass forgeworld book previewed where would see things like airships brought into the game (K.overlords).

I suspect they increased the scope of things like stormcast, fyreslayers, khorne and the KO- making them full armies from just a handful of kits.

On the subject, thats the saddest thing about the direction they are taking with TOW. That wonderful blackfire pass book is just sitting in a desk drawer somewhere, moulds for most of the models were meant to have been done and now they've set TOW outside the 8th ed timeline, its unlikely we will ever see that campaign.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Essentially make it where to play the GD you need the old sculpt or to house rule.

Which would be incredibly stupid. Doubly so if it applied to every GD except the Bloodthirster.

Which, given GW's rage-boner for Khorne, will probably happen.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Unless they're going to say GDs have to be on 50mm bases, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a creative way to base them on the right sized base.

The obvious fear is that three GD's will be on 50x50 and the Bloodthirster will be on 50x100 (or larger) because that was the final state of things in 8th

That would be so mindbendingly stupid, that it is entirely possible for GW to do.

Must admit that I'm disappointed their appoach to TOW seems to be to discourage using AOS models. I don't play AOS, but the release of Old World tempted me to look at doing a lizardmen army - partly because their new models looks great and partly because (though I largely became a 40k and scifi gamer) my introduction to wargaming was through my cousins WFB starter - the set with brets (I think?) and lizardmen - always had a soft spot for the cold-blooded ones.

But it kinda sounds like that isn't a project worth pursuing now - though that'd save me money I suppose lol

It is a debate I think whether if you’re buying into TOW for the first time and not using an existing army, if it’s worth getting a legacy army. For those that have seen the rules for the legacy armies (but are likely under an NDA so no specifics), they’ve said legacy armies have received the same love with regards to rules as the main factions.

So the main thing being no ongoing support, arcane journals, new models, or updates. Guess it depends in my mind if you feel like biting the bullet provided you have a vibrant gaming community that has embraced TOW.

The battle of black fire pass happened over 2200 yrs prior to TOWs timeline though?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Unless they're going to say GDs have to be on 50mm bases, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find a creative way to base them on the right sized base.

The obvious fear is that three GD's will be on 50x50 and the Bloodthirster will be on 50x100 (or larger) because that was the final state of things in 8th

Isn't that worry put to bed by the Treeman and giant, though? They aren't 50x50, final destination. They're 50x50 OR 50x75. The Shaggoth also got bumped from 50 square to 50x75.

Even the treekin got bumped to 50mm, which makes using the AoS sorta-equivalents quite viable.

Weren't the current Giant and Treeman models out for Warhammer before the change to AoS?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weren't the current Giant and Treeman models out for Warhammer before the change to AoS?

Yes, but for the Treeman specifically it looks like they’re releasing the 6th Ed metal.

That's... so frustratingly stupid.

WHY????

The current Treeman model is a Treeman. Not an "Age of Sigmar Treeman".

I have several friends who build their kill teams or Mordheim bands or even wh40k armies from expensive, oop vintage models from the 80s or 90s very much on purpose, even though these models are objectively inferior in quality to modern plastics.

I can easily see them choose a vintage version of a treeman over a new one for a nostalgia TOW army, even if it meant hunting for it on eBay.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's... so frustratingly stupid.

WHY????

The current Treeman model is a Treeman. Not an "Age of Sigmar Treeman".

Presumably because they want to sell that one as a ‘Sylvaneth Treelord’ and the metal one as a ‘Wood Elf Treeman’

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's... so frustratingly stupid.

WHY????

The current Treeman model is a Treeman. Not an "Age of Sigmar Treeman".

It's the tree man for AoS and they want a different one for the other game which I can understand even though it is stupid.

This is all very much a:
"We want the old whfb back"
The monkeys paw curls
"Sure here you go"
"No! Not like that!"

 nathan2004 wrote:
It is a debate I think whether if you’re buying into TOW for the first time and not using an existing army, if it’s worth getting a legacy army. For those that have seen the rules for the legacy armies (but are likely under an NDA so no specifics), they’ve said legacy armies have received the same love with regards to rules as the main factions.

So the main thing being no ongoing support, arcane journals, new models, or updates. Guess it depends in my mind if you feel like biting the bullet provided you have a vibrant gaming community that has embraced TOW.

Big Q for starting with legacy armies will be will non-GW tournaments allow them. If not chances to use the army will be rather low in practice.

Knowing the community here in Poland I find disallowing players with legacy armies from entering tournaments highly unbelievable.

Knowing the community in Europe, the chance that tournaments are TOW in name only is pretty high in general

You won't play TOW at tournaments here, but a community edition that uses that name
if we are lucky there will be 2-3 people agree on to use, if we get the old times back, we want have 2 tournaments using playing the same game, but all will call themselves TOW

Yeah I think it's extremely unlikely non-GW tournaments find their community will let them exclude the legacy armies no matter what GW say. Some house ruling may happen though and it'll be a bit of an incoherent mess.

I hope GW will eventually accept that is to the game's detriment and that they need to make them legal and grant ongoing rules support at least, but we'll see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's... so frustratingly stupid.

WHY????

The current Treeman model is a Treeman. Not an "Age of Sigmar Treeman".

TBF as long as the rules support the use of both base sizes (which I think they do) it doesn't really matter - and it's not like you won't be able to buy the AoS model. If the metal model is available or at least MTO that gives people options, even if I think very few people would opt for the old metals.