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 Azazelx wrote:


They actually appear to be a case of adding (back) in things to the core box which were cynically removed to use as stretch goals. I mean, face huggers in an "Aliens" game...

That may be but that still isn't a 'last minute' action given that the KS had only just started.

 marv335 wrote:

An APC would be nice in the future, but wouldn't fit in the game, it being a Space Hulk style corridor layout.
Maybe if they do a miniature game..

I believe that Prodos have stated that this game will scale up to a full sized wargame. In which case I can see things like Loaders, Alien Queens, etc making it into this KS. Whether they will try to fund APCs or the like is less certain. That might be for another KS.

Update 4 - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game/posts/656773

And we have unlocked the Warrior Aliens

 Souleater wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:


They actually appear to be a case of adding (back) in things to the core box which were cynically removed to use as stretch goals. I mean, face huggers in an "Aliens" game...

That may be but that still isn't a 'last minute' action given that the KS had only just started.

I never said anything about "last minute". I just said that face huggers are such an integral/iconic part of the whole Aliens IP that them not being in the game and instead "added as a stretch goal" rubs me very much as something that would have been in the core of any retail product being a rather cynical addition, as it feels like something artificially removed from a game box in order to be added (back) in as a stretch goal. The marine sergeant has that kind of feel too, to be honest, as does the smart gun and flamer marines we haven't heard anything about yet.

The smart gun and incinerator unit are both already included in the game.

Yes that could well be the case.

Guys - I emailed and asked about the possibility of Machiko being an additional character at some point (was kind of disappointed that the female predator revealed wasn't her)

The reply from Prodos - "Possibly " !

 BrookM wrote:
The smart gun and incinerator unit are both already included in the game.

In that case, I stand corrected on those. I still feel that way about the Facehuggers, and Sergeant, though.

 Azazelx wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
The smart gun and incinerator unit are both already included in the game.

In that case, I stand corrected on those. I still feel that way about the Facehuggers, and Sergeant, though.

Agreed, especially with the first group, those are such an intricate part of the setting, along with the eggs they come in!

@Azazelx: My apologies but you quoted me along with a guy that said it was 'last minute'.

I was trying to point out the difference in what the two of you said.

As I said, you and others could well be right. I was arguing with the gentlemen over the 'last minute' bit, however.

You may have noticed the "splat" and cylinder shaped place holders on the contents picture, I assume these are meant to have represented huggers and eggs. So with huggers In I can only assume we will see the eggs too. Plus the number of stalkers and infants seem to be different from the listed quantities too.

Well it looks like they are using the AVPR style for the Alien Warriors, and basically lied when they said they were gonna use the design from Aliens.. Real shame.

Have we actually seen a full render of the Alien warriors yet?

Could be filler for all we know. Or you know, go ask Prodos in the comments section of the KS?

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
You may have noticed the "splat" and cylinder shaped place holders on the contents picture, I assume these are meant to have represented huggers and eggs. So with huggers In I can only assume we will see the eggs too. Plus the number of stalkers and infants seem to be different from the listed quantities too.

Fairly sure those are counters, stacked and unstacked.

Or the the style of Alien will be be on offer too at a later date.

Who knows? Best ask Prodos, who might give us a promising veiled answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, despite what I earlier thought, we are slowly crawling towards the 110k, will be interesting to see what kind of boosts this project will receive once one or two of the bigger geekdom news sites run an article or even a notice on this one.

 BrookM wrote:
Could be filler for all we know. Or you know, go ask Prodos in the comments section of the KS?

I already did about other stuff, but don't want to over-do it and start sounding like a kid tugging at a parents sleeve constantly!

Imposter101, perhaps you could ask? You sound like you know your stuff about it!

Prodos just confirmed that the marine with the incinerator is female.

 Pacific wrote:
Have we actually seen a full render of the Alien warriors yet?

Not yet, I asked in the comments and they're not ready to show a render yet (hopefully will be soon).

Also, weren't the infants/stalkers traditionally sculpted (leaked a long time ago?) while all these later sculpts are digital? If so, interesting... I think the digital PredAlien sculpt looks way better than the alien imfants/stalkers.

I think I was mistaken about the first aliens sculpts we've seen being traditionally sculpted, since they showed these renders earlier and they look decidedly digital...



Also you purists have won me over on the Aliens look . I really prefer the "non-smooth heads". Right now, I've got a pledge in that is enough for "Real Aliens Ain't From Mars", but have just selected the lowest pledge level thinking I'd only go for add-ons. I'm not all that interested in the models in the base box game, but love the PredAlien and expect to feel the same way about the Hound.

I may be interested in some of the upcoming models, too, such as the Alien Warriors, Sentry Gun, or Royal Guard.

Edit: Well, having thought it over this pounds symbol has been getting me to up my pledge too much . I'm going to set my max at $200 / 125 pounds, and that's a hard stop! Which means add-ons only for me

dbl post sry!

I think Dakka automatically deletes double posts, Antenociti, so now we don't have any of your posts

 Taarnak wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

I do appreciate your technical expertise, but I'm afraid you've missed the forest for the trees: I do know about the (possible) increased technical difficulties and the (potential) limitations on sales... I just don't care.

It's not that I'm totally without sympathy for them, but while I could easily understand if a unity of 3 Predators was as much as a unit of 5 Aliens, they aren't. A unit of three (3!) Predators is as much as a unit of 5 Alien Infant Warriors and a unit of 5 Stalker Aliens.

Granted, from the critical comments on Alien anatomy, the audience seems clearly very, very interested in that franchise rather then the Predator franchise, but as someone that is largely indifferent to the Aliens and into Predators, this is really not much of a deal. As an aside, from a gameplay point of view, since this is (according to the front page) balanced so that a single Predator can take on an entire squad of Marines, that's... that's some heavy asymmetry in the balance.

On a less serious note, I was going to edit an image to visually represent the price disparity... and then I found this immensely funny. I can't even explain why, I just keep imaging the guy on the roof saying "Hey guys!"

You do understand that your not caring doesn't change the economics of the situation though, right?

But the situation laid out by Antenociti doesn't necessarily cover the economics that well. This KS will be covering a lot, if not all (it should be all), of their costs in producing both this limited edition and the standard edition. From what I've heard other producers say, the board, books, and cards are likely to be the single biggest expense.

We are taking on all the risk as backers. Shouldn't we get something for that? A discount that matches or gets near to what I can get from an online shop (without having to spend extra to get it) is not too much to ask in exchange for that risk, in my opinion.

I don't know. I do know that in my opinion, folks asking for better value to cover all the risks is not out of line. I feel that the KS price for the Predators could (maybe should) be closer to that of the Aliens or Colonial Marine squad. Once it hits retail, the situation that Antenociti outlined becomes entirely relevant.

~Eric

I dont think people understand the difficulties of running a kickstarter.. I know I didnt until we started doing the maths.... its ... complex.

And the moment you start the KS... everything changes.

Also please dont take my comments as a commentary on the ACTUAL prices - i've no idea of their actual costs or their internal calculations: I just know that that Predator will cost more to produce than that Alien.

Companies have the choice to ameliorate their costs across different figures (simply put: charge more for the Aliens, less for the Predator, one figures 'subsidises the other').. but when one sits down and tries to work out the maths for that... against a totally unknown number of sales.. it very quickly becomes immensely difficult.

The difficulty, and the possible variation, getting less and less the closer you get to the end of the KS Project i.e. you have more (relatively) firm numbers to juggle in your spreadsheet...and you see that in the "Better" offers you get closer to the end.

I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.

The "risk" as backers though is usually infinitesimal compared tot he risk of the project owner.... and "shouldnt we get something for that" is exactly what Kickstarter is about: if you didnt take that risk you wont see the product "at all".

Again though, that has been subsumed into the whole "KS is just a fancy pre-order and marketing system" now.

But, back to you central point: If you accept the (factual) production cost differences, then make your request to Prodos taking that into account: as a potential backer there''s nothing stopping you from asking for a Predator-Only package.... which,a and just trust me on this, is probably easier to do than adjusting the cost of the Predators across the entire project (as that may royally screw up the spreadsheets).

It may be worth remembering that this is AvP though, not just "P" and that there IS life after a kickstarter... a product that needs still to be sold and money to be made... so not every aspiration of a backer is necessarily a Good Thing™.

If it were me, and I only wanted Pradators though, I would chase that as specific add-on pack... because something like that is generally easier to cost "On the fly".

Give it a shot, see what they say.

edit: and, yes, i agree, there's no harm in asking for cheaper prices.... but the chances of that increase the closer you get to the end of the KS Project.... often *just* because the company behind it now has a far better picture of exactly WHERE costs will be. Its hard to explain, but imagine 10 products, all with different costs and, at the start of a KS Project, you simply "do not know" which will be the most popular... making it very hard to work out production times or factor in production discounts..by the time you get to 48 hours to go you've gotten a lot, lot more data, you can judge things like volumes of silicone and resin, and seek out discount up your own supply chain, factor those back in and... voila... end-day specials that can be done "for free".

(Of course, an issue there is that it might make a mockery of "early bird" deals, buts thats another issue altogether)

 Antenociti wrote:

I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.

It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.

We expect less value for pre orders, but by the same token since we get less value, we compare what we would get by backing to what we would get at release which usually includes a discount from online discounters. If the KS doesn't seem like good value, there's every chance we can get the same stuff for cheaper at retail, and completely negate whatever risk is in the KS - not so much not getting the product, but the product being poorly cast and so on, since we'll be able to see reviews of the stuff before we buy at retail.

Also I don't think anyone in this thread is saying we want the models at plastic prices. Using plastic prices as a comparison point help determine value, along with other resin and restic prices. Earlier I compared AvP minis to the ridiculously awesome Vic Minis resin offerings, which come out to the same price ($5 per mini) as AvP marines and aliens. However with Vic we know we get a high quality product and a bunch of extras, along with free international shipping and no risk. We don't know if we get extras in each kit yet, we still pay shipping and there is still a lot of risk with this being a kickstarter.

 Yonan wrote:

 Antenociti wrote:

I think KS backers tend now to regard themselves as customers though..and the project as a pre-order.... and they see 120 plastic figures for $100 and want 120 resin figures for the same, with no real appreciation of the (vast) difference...although I am not saying they NEED to know, perhaps that is part of the job of the Kickstarter itself - to inform potential backers...but then KS is now perhaps just a big pre-order system with often false expectations.

It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.

We expect less value for pre orders, but by the same token since we get less value, we compare what we would get by backing to what we would get at release which usually includes a discount from online discounters. If the KS doesn't seem like good value, there's every chance we can get the same stuff for cheaper at retail, and completely negate whatever risk is in the KS - not so much not getting the product, but the product being poorly cast and so on, since we'll be able to see reviews of the stuff before we buy at retail.

Also I don't think anyone in this thread is saying we want the models at plastic prices. Using plastic prices as a comparison point help determine value, along with other resin and restic prices. Earlier I compared AvP minis to the ridiculously awesome Vic Minis resin offerings, which come out to the same price ($5 per mini) as AvP marines and aliens. However with Vic we know we get a high quality product and a bunch of extras, along with free international shipping and no risk. We don't know if we get extras in each kit yet, we still pay shipping and there is still a lot of risk with this being a kickstarter.

A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )

edit 2: and thx for the whole reply btw - it was very interesting and useful (seriously)

- - -

Creator Prodos Games Ltd about 3 hours ago

The nature of the 'later release' will depend on response to this. The models that are in the box (3 Preds, Alien stalkers 5 Colonials etc) will change to plastic, hence so likely will these models when sold as an addon. Hence the 3 Preds in question will be likely available in late 2014 in plastic (as a 3 pack)....(or at least a redesign of them (redisign for plastic)

- - - -

Edit: The box set is only available in plastic after this KS. Hence any add ons that have models in the box set the same. The rest of the models unlocked here will likely be available in resin in the future.

-----

Yay! Hounds!

NOTE: The stuff I say below does not imply that I think backing AvP is any more risky than any other KS project (in fact because Prodos have run a successful KS I consider them a BETTER risk than many projects)

that said

Always consider KS a risk, even when run by an established company

simply because nobody knows what the future holds,

and the KS platform and the status of the backers of a project has not been tested (enough) in law for you to be certain what your outcome would be in trying to recover money/goods if things go wrong

the fact that money changes hands through the intermediaries of KS and Amazon Payments (each with their own T&C that you have to sign up to, potentially meaning you might be obliged to seek any legal redress in a foreign country) help complicate things even more compared to a simple CC purchase from company X

My KS tips,

don't spend money you can't afford to loose (so no dipping into little timmy's coledge fund),

don't spend all your years gaming budget on KS projects (the waiting will hurt)

expect delays no matter how prepared the company running the KS was (eg Prodos could not have predicted their chosen printer would be flooded out badly delaying the printing of the Warzone rulebook)

don't feel you HAVE to get everything just because it looks cheap via KS, you might not actually use/want some of it and the way economies of scale work you may find out the KS prices are no better than standard internet seller discounts so only pick up stuff you REALLY want

and above all have fun

Yonan wrote:It depends on the KS whether we regard ourselves as pre orders or investors. With Dreamforge and Mantic for example, nothing exists beforehand so we invest in the project and that money goes to make the expensive tooling required for the project. This project seems much closer to a pre order since they're aiming at shipping very soon and have renders for all or most of the stuff already, along with actual production model casts for at least some of them.

I don't see a significant difference between the "preorder" nature of this offering or Mantic ones like Deadzone. They're both products that regardless of funding will be made and available (same contents, different materials) through traditional retail outlets. To me, that's a preorder and it's purpose is to cut out the "middle man" and increase the manufacturer's cut of the MSRP on the important initial rush purchases from roughly 50% to 90%. KS may increase the depth and breadth of the offerings in that initial rush though but that doesn't change what I feel it is. Since I view it as an attempt mainly to increase profits per unit rather than bring something new to market (since it's coming anyways), I expect some of that distributor/store discount to be passed along to the consumer. I have different expectations though of smaller kickstarters/companies that have no retail presence. YMMV.

Antenociti wrote:A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )
-----

It's definitely still risky as is any preorder done 6 months in advance via an international cash transaction with little to no recourse available to the payer. Making it a toy soldier purchase doesn't change any of that as there are plenty of things both in Prodos' control and completely out of their control that could happen. IIRC the Warzone kickstarter was both delayed in its initial delivery dates and they had a change in materials from what was promised during the campaign and the same thing or worse could easily happen here as well. Now with warzone the changes/delays weren't very significant in my opinion and most importantly they communicated well with the pledgers during the process so hopefully the same would happen here in that type of case.The person or persons who do their casting could get sick/quit/start their own company and delay the project. Fox could start making unreasonable demands on approval post kickstarter. A natural disaster could occur in the EU or more specifically in the Prodos building (like a fire) and wipe out most of their funding. An economic collapse could wildly swing the currency conversion rate and make the game unprofitable to manufacture or ship. Paying upfront months to years in advance via kickstarter puts a large share of the risk on the consumer who previously had no risk.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
My KS tips,

don't spend money you can't afford to loose (so no dipping into little timmy's coledge fund),

don't spend all your years gaming budget on KS projects (the waiting will hurt)

expect delays no matter how prepared the company running the KS was (eg Prodos could not have predicted their chosen printer would be flooded out badly delaying the printing of the Warzone rulebook)

don't feel you HAVE to get everything just because it looks cheap via KS, you might not actually use/want some of it and the way economies of scale work you may find out the KS prices are no better than standard internet seller discounts so only pick up stuff you REALLY want

and above all have fun

These are some Really good tips! Last year, I really did spend my gaming budget on KS, and yes it did really hurt

Not feeling you have to get everything is also important as Orlando says, just get what you really like

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:



don't spend money you can't afford to loose (so no dipping into little timmy's coledge fund),

If you're doing that to pay for miniatures, you've got a bigger problem than backing risky kickstarters!

Definitely good tips for those new to kickstarter, though.

 Antenociti wrote:
A question for you - even though this is an extant company with existing products in the marketplace, and the KS Project goal already achieved, you still regard this as a risk? (i'm very interested in this from a purely personal POV ¬_¬ )

edit 2: and thx for the whole reply btw - it was very interesting and useful (seriously)

/bow, I do love a good discussion and your posts have been highly informative and well written so thought I'd contribute, even if we ultimately disagree ; )

The risk is in the quality of the items produced, and I'll use Mantic as an example. Are you aware of the problems they have had with the Kings of War Basilean Man at Arms kits? And their decision to send out some of Dreadball wave 3 as metal, without asking their backers if this was acceptable, when everything was supposed to be in restic? That's the sort of "risk" I'm talking about - but there are many more examples that I'm less familiar with (I've become a bit of a Mantic fan despite these troubles). We don't know what the quality of the casts will be with a Kickstarter. Prior performance from the company is a good indicator, but far from foolproof. By backing a kickstarter, we risk dodgy things like that, whereas if we wait for retail we know exactly what we're getting into.

I'm aware the retail release will be plastic, and for me it's a mixed blessing. I prefer plastic, and I prefer multi part. The kickstarter is resin multi part, the retail is plastic single pose, so you can see my dilemma ; p

p.s. Looking forward to your products arriving in my deadzone package, they looked great ; ) Some in Mars Attacks too, but they're a lot further off.

 warboss wrote:
I don't see a significant difference between the "preorder" nature of this offering or Mantic ones like Deadzone. They're both products that regardless of funding will be made and available (same contents, different materials) through traditional retail outlets.

They're not though, or not completely at least. We've seen actual production models (I think) for AvP - that means they're completely done. For Deadzone, we saw a lot of concepts, some 3d renders, and I'm not sure if we saw any completed models. We certainly didn't see any production models, as we only just this week saw them. The difference between pre order and investor is the stage at which you participate. We participated far earlier in the Deadzone development process than it looks like we are in the AvP one. I could be mistaken about the relative stages though.

To me, that's a preorder and it's purpose is to cut out the "middle man" and increase the manufacturer's cut of the MSRP

I'm all for this, I *much* rather give straight to the developer/manufacturer where possible, especially where middle men add no value to the transaction. But because they only get what, 60% of the retail price compared to ~90% of the KS price, there's definitely a lot more room for them to share the margin with us, their investors.