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I keep seeing the complaint about theme forces in MKIII as if somehow this prevents you from building an army your way. it doesn't, it is a direct give to the steamroller optimized players just like 9th edition 40K is a give directly to the tournament player mindset in 40K. neither in my opinion are good for the games in question. but then i walked away from that toxic scene over a decade ago with 40K

You can still build and play whatever you like without the odd free unit/model in a theme force and still be viable and effective as an army in the game in MKIII.

The other big thing is that 75 point armies should never have become a thing for a "normal" sized game. the mechanics do not support it. it is designed as a skirmish system and breaks down above the optimal 50 point level.

 aphyon wrote:

The other big thing is that 75 point armies should never have become a thing for a "normal" sized game. the mechanics do not support it. it is designed as a skirmish system and breaks down above the optimal 50 point level.

75 in MK3 is essentially the same size game as 50 was in MK2. At the start of MK3 it was actually a hair smaller. Price reductions have done more to bloat the army size over MK3 than anything else. Requisition makes it technically a little larger, but where its mostly adding solos you wouldn't take otherwise it doesn't have a huge impact on game size.

Cyel wrote:
I think the game was in its best shape a few months after mk3 launch, when PP balanced the worst outliers (Karchev Mad Dog spam, Una+ Griffons, High Reclaimer).

After that it was a downward spiral with Themepocalypse butchering variety, CiD powercreep and rulescreep, overcomplicated new models/factions with buckets of special rules to remember (despite promises of heavy streamlining at the start of mk3), prices getting absurd...

As much as I love Warmachine and Privateer Press, they broke me from really wanting to play because of three things:

-Themes
-Quality control/customer service
-Constant CID

The themes made the game so much more expensive and time consuming to expand an army. Before I could swap a single unit in a list to change it up or give it a solution to problems like Incorporeal, or Tough spam. To try new stuff with an army, I often have to buy into an entirely new theme. Makes it difficult for newer players as well, as they will be stuck with one theme, giving them limited options against players with larger collections. The theme also hand out free models... and the game is more than large enough as is.

The quality control from Privateer Press feels like it has taken a nosedive, and the poor communication from their customer service reps have made me not want to buy anything new. I have had FAR more miscasts and missing parts with newer items recently than I ever have since I started buying their stuff in Mk. I. I tend to order a lot of bits for conversions from their parts section of the online store, and recently have gotten a lot of wrong parts sent to me, repeatedly sent wrong parts after filling out replacement tickets, and had replacement tickets for miscast models closed on me without them sending the replacement parts. Been trying for close to a year just to get a few small parts I have ordered to finish a few conversions, that were missing from the package when it arrived. The packaging itself has taken a dive as well. They used to send parts in a blister pack with small pieces of foam to protect them in a shipping envelope, or in a small box... now? They put parts in a plastic bag and mail them in an envelope, letting them get smashed up.

The constant CID schedule has created a revolving door of rules to remember. Now, I don't mind models that aren't working as intended getting some help or being nerfed a bit to create more variety in lists... but the CID schedule has been plagued with power creep and factions of players sabotaging the system to get their army to be stronger, or make others worse off. A lot of the time models are released into the CID cycle with obviously broken rules as well... which is an absolute waste of time. The CID cycle is too short to start off with clearly broken rules and try to adjust it down to something more balanced in just two weeks time. Makes me feel like the in house play testing is severely lacking of late.

-Themes
-Quality control/customer service
-Constant CID

On themes, i don't see that as an issue. just continue to use and play with what minis you like, nobody is making you use a theme list.

Quality control-not surprising given some of the things i have heard about their facilities from people who have visited the main office(i only live a couple hours away by car)

CID has not really been something i noticed aside from the much needed re-work of battle engines to make them worth using (the signar one is still lackluster and could use some improved rules)

In the casual setting i play in i would just use whichever version of the rules for MKIII you like rather it be pre/post CID.

I strongly disagree with your repeated notion that a theme vs non-theme army game is in any way fair or interesting. There's a reason nobody does that.

Nobody in my group plays "theme" VS "non theme" in the sense of the required list builds set down by PP to get free units. and the games are just fine.

We play theme in the sense it is an army built around certain models we like.

Our circle orbos player runs kaya with warp wolves and skin walkers with a few other occasional units like shifting stones because he loves wolves and wanted to do a werewolf "themed" list.

Of course in a close group you may self-regulate the "power level", something that my casual wh40k group used to do in 6th ed for example (I'd love to have a nice comp in WM&H now! I loved Swedish Comp for 40k!). With a like-minded group like this you may set any limitations you want in fact, for example "let's not play with casters whose names start with a vowel".

If you play in a bigger, varied group, with strangers or with people who prefer Themes to be a thing, you have to be prepared to face Themes and part of it is using a Theme Force yourself. If you don't, you risk wasting time on very one-sided matches. Which is a pity IMO

We are right back to the major problem with the game at the moment-the toxic core community.

Our group plays many different game systems we all want a good fun game with a good fight since this is social activity even though everybody likes a win.

Just like any other game system i will play anybody once, but if your a giant jackwagon don't expect another game with me. several 40K players have been put on my "banned" list over the last 20 years. i am not playing for the sake of frustration

Well, in this case it's the system's fault. You can't blame players for wanting to play with themes, or with Horde factions, or with Mercenaries, or with Infernals, or with Structures, or with cavalry warcasters, or with shooty warjacks, or with Cygnar, or with Pathfinder models, or with Tough models etc.

Otherwise everybody will stick to their list of pet peeves and never play anyone, because they will consider them "jackwagons" for wanting to play with an Agoniser or Kreoss or junior warcasters or whatever models they like playing with.

i think your twisting what i said a bit. their is quite a difference between playing cygnar or any other army the way you want like my orobos example and playing a list forced upon the player by PP. requiring them to use models they may not want, to get free perks. especially if it makes the game less enjoyable for both players.

Nobody wants a one sided game (outside of possibly tournament WAAC players) in a general casual game scene.

Well, I am quite sure that many players would prefer Infernals or Battle Engines to be banned in their gaming group (casual or competitive), instead of Theme Forces.

I am not a fan of current Theme Forces, I'd prefer them gone. I just don't think expecting players not to use them just because I dislike them is reasonable. Especially at events where I just meet random people.

The more i think about it, MKIII theme forces are PPs version of 40Ks 7th edition debacle that was formations. giving game breaking perks for taking certain models.


As for infernals, not sure the problem there i never did battle against them.
i have experience against
.circle
.cygnar
.menoth
.legion
.convergence
.rhulic
.crucible guard

 aphyon wrote:
The more i think about it, MKIII theme forces are PPs version of 40Ks 7th edition debacle that was formations. giving game breaking perks for taking certain models.

I always saw them more like 40k codices than formations. 'cygnar' is a range of models with codex:trenchers etc. Just my thoughts mind.

 aphyon wrote:

As for infernals, not sure the problem there i never did battle against them.
i have experience against
.circle
.cygnar
.menoth
.legion
.convergence
.rhulic
.crucible guard

Pretty sure they can do ridiculous things based on summoning by sacrificing their own models. I think its like swap a solo in game for a heavy 'jack'/'horror'. And unless it changed there is no limit to this. Can't remember all the details; haven't played in a while. Plus their casters are insane. From what I heard from my mates that still play, They upended the meta.

Sounds like the old MKI deathjack swap that used to be a big thing.

 aphyon wrote:
Sounds like the old MKI deathjack swap that used to be a big thing.

There is only one deathjack though. (Need to get that kit!)

Now imagine every solo can be swapped out for a heavy.

Apparently infernal.armies canned up.costimg close to £1000. (UK prices here, thank you brexit and the exchange rate).

Gotta love that VAT tax


My FLGS is only like an hour away from the PP main office. so getting a hold of stuff is actually easy for me. sometimes some of the staff stop in and drop us off bits. we got an infernal summoning cauldron thing they gave us for store terrain. i think it was a test model.

Deadnight wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
The more i think about it, MKIII theme forces are PPs version of 40Ks 7th edition debacle that was formations. giving game breaking perks for taking certain models.

I always saw them more like 40k codices than formations. 'cygnar' is a range of models with codex:trenchers etc. Just my thoughts mind.

Themes aren't quite codices, closer to supplements combined with Formation benefits. Mk2 Themes were far more restrictive of what went in them since they were tied to specific Warcasters and Warlocks, so in a way they were closer to 40K Formations, but they weren't quite as overboard on the free models as the Mk3 Themes have gone with. At least Requisition made it a little more balanced in setup.

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 Mr. Grey wrote:

3. Miniature quality. PP does good resin/pewter, but most of their plastics blow, and they have for years. I don't like the weird pvc material they use, it's a huge pain to clean mold lines off of and assemble. And since most core units are plastic now, it means that the most enjoyable part of the hobby for me - painting and modelling - is no longer so enjoyable. I'd honestly pay more to just have everything in resin or back in pewter.

On this topic: from what I gather, Privateer Press has been experiencing a lot of stock issues, and many, many people are getting extremely frustrated by this. You can't expect to run a miniatures-based wargame company well with constant supply and demand issues. I hear rumors that they're having issues with the manufacturer of their plastics in China. Well... that needs to get fixed, and ASAP. I think that PP has always been a "rules first, miniatures second" company. Great rules are great, but the minis are what sell the game when you're in a game store and see a game in progress.

These two things essentially go hand in hand. Those awful PVC were years in the making with years of backlog even after their lack of quality was apparent. At this point, PP seems to have stopped making them, but hasn't found a suitable alternative or if they have, it's going to be a bit before they're ready for market. I suspect they're mostly just letting MK3 coast until they have a working product to use to relaunch the game for MK4.

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I haven't played really since MK2, always more of a fan of the setting then the core game itself, but I'm curious if all the people complaining about Theme forces have looked at the changes to those rules that came out with Oblivion and if they made any difference?

I think for me it's purely a case of there not being a convient group for me. Closest one is a fair few suburbs over and only really plays on Thursdays after work. Sadly just not the ideal time for me. Besides that the gaming group was pretty healthy. Decent enough people. And I enjoyed most of the models, though I will agree the casting of plastics could be better.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I haven't played really since MK2, always more of a fan of the setting then the core game itself, but I'm curious if all the people complaining about Theme forces have looked at the changes to those rules that came out with Oblivion and if they made any difference?

Those changes really did help a lot. I think there's still a few too many themes for PP to effectively manage, but removing the points requirements and opening up mercenary options adds a lot of options, particularly for casters that want a large battlegroup.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I haven't played really since MK2, always more of a fan of the setting then the core game itself, but I'm curious if all the people complaining about Theme forces have looked at the changes to those rules that came out with Oblivion and if they made any difference?

Those changes really did help a lot. I think there's still a few too many themes for PP to effectively manage, but removing the points requirements and opening up mercenary options adds a lot of options, particularly for casters that want a large battlegroup.

Aye, the current themes are much less daunting than the ones earlier in MK3. Those ones really did make me feel like my old armies were priced out and that I had to play a theme or not play (I ultimately chose to not play). The new ones much less so - though with all the free solos and whatever, the new themes make me wonder why not just say you're playing 90 pt games and get that over with? And also make me want to play 50 all the more (which is really ~60 with themes).

But really, my problem with MK3 themes is that I loved MK2 themes. For the first time ever, I was playing a game that rewarded me for playing less optimized units and/or running disadvantageous skew lists that did cool unique things.* I had never experienced this before, especially as a player breaking away from GW's games, where min/maxing obviously better stuff has always been the way to Do It Right, and taking obviously worse stuff is for filthy casuals. So my personal angst over MK3 themes is how far they've fallen from MK2's more evocative and rewarding themes.

*This was my own experience, I'm sure the meta had a small handful of hyper-broken themes making it bad for everybody, not just the derpy ones I built around and towards

 Boss Salvage wrote:

*This was my own experience, I'm sure the meta had a small handful of hyper-broken themes making it bad for everybody, not just the derpy ones I built around and towards

This.... entirely this. There was a short window in MK2 where playing against Denegra2 meant "don't move your caster or auto lose the game". There were... lots of others... but that one was definitely the worst of the worst.

I think people vastly overestimate the value of free solos simply because solos aren't really worth their points. In a lot of ways the REQ system is like the solo/attachment version of WJPs. A side currency for forced variety. Outside of a couple of REALLY dump REQ options (Initiates....) it doesn't really bulk the game up the same way adding 15+ points of additional units or jacks would.

This feels liked when GW wasn't listening to its customers, as so many of us agree... themes and CID were huge turnoffs to me in Mk3, for all the reasons listed.

Maybe PP will eventually listen, like GW mostly did! They would make a lot more money, for the same reason. Could someone connected point them to this thread for reference?

deleted

PP can, but they don't have the money to pull as big or as sudden of a turnaround as GW did.

But Warcaster is a good step as many of its rules are changes to directly address issues in Warmachine. It's new enough that it doesn't have the same stigma to the distributors, retailers, and players.

And... if they're smart about the IP, they can push the setting more than they did IK.

That and it's not steampunk, which can still be cool, but it definitely out of favor in terms of genre. If WM rebooted a came back they may update the tech in the setting.

 Vertrucio wrote:
PP can, but they don't have the money to pull as big or as sudden of a turnaround as GW did.

An edition change is largely easy compared to the model line change up that GW did. Outside the developers, the cost of development lies in putting the new edition in to the hands of the customer. PDF rules aren't difficult to deploy, but for those who like books and setting up a War Room 3, that will present the largest investing costs.

GW had big bucks, and they still haven't put all of their 40K line in plastic even after the last decade that they've been pushing this change. GW's getting there, but several armies still have a large amounts of resin that aren't Characters. Privateer Press is WAY behind on this front and I'm wondering if they will ever make that development leap. And unless there is a reason to go big or they really revamp their unit structures, rebuilding units is a waste at this point considering the second hand market.

 Vertrucio wrote:
But Warcaster is a good step as many of its rules are changes to directly address issues in Warmachine. It's new enough that it doesn't have the same stigma to the distributors, retailers, and players.

Something I thought back in the early days of Warcaster is that they could be using it to test out concepts and ideas to put in to Warmachine Mk IV, much like GW did with Age of Sigmar before attacking 40K's 7th Edition.

 Vertrucio wrote:
PP can, but they don't have the money to pull as big or as sudden of a turnaround as GW did.

But Warcaster is a good step as many of its rules are changes to directly address issues in Warmachine. It's new enough that it doesn't have the same stigma to the distributors, retailers, and players.

And... if they're smart about the IP, they can push the setting more than they did IK.

That and it's not steampunk, which can still be cool, but it definitely out of favor in terms of genre. If WM rebooted a came back they may update the tech in the setting.

After reviewing warcaster i found the rules quite un-appealing , in fact aside from some of the models looks it already has a direct competitor in a better more established cyberpunk setting game that is infinity.

As we talked about before the mechanics of the game for the most part are not the problem. in fact many of the games that PP make are quite good. i enjoy the hell out of their version of monpoc almost all of the hatred is about the behavior of the company in production/retail, materials and the themes restriction changes, then of course the behavior of toxic "hardcore" players that make up a core part of the community are not going to be altered by a reboot.

I really enjoy the setting and the game because it is different than the other games i play but at this point i doubt anybody would not get crushed by the juggernaught that GW has created unless they do something as bad as 6th edition again that turns off their own player base. rather than trying to change warmachine they went with what is probably their best option of just releasing an entirely new game with new rules that sort of follows the ideas of warmachines caster/jack/infantry army layout.