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Order (Sigmar) and Disorder (Everyone else) or Unity (Sigmar) and Order (Everyone else)?

lol

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But let's be honest, even more important for grand alliance parity would be to split Order into Sigmar and Random donkey-caves

Quarantine the elves into their own GA.

 Overread wrote:
esp as they are still yet to add Malarion's Aelf force which were the shadowy dark elves of the setting.

Quoted for emphasis.

One of the biggest players in the old setting, and the most important Dark Elf from that era, is still not in the game. We know that he's out there (albeit changed). We know that he's active in some fashion. IMO it would be premature to fold the remaining Druuchi remnants into DoK before we (*finally*, I'll add; we've been waiting far too long for his reintroduction) get Malekith/Malerion.

Eumerin wrote:

 Overread wrote:
esp as they are still yet to add Malarion's Aelf force which were the shadowy dark elves of the setting.

Quoted for emphasis.

One of the biggest players in the old setting, and the most important Dark Elf from that era, is still not in the game. We know that he's out there (albeit changed). We know that he's active in some fashion. IMO it would be premature to fold the remaining Druuchi remnants into DoK before we (*finally*, I'll add; we've been waiting far too long for his reintroduction) get Malekith/Malerion.

The surprise is that the Daughters of Khaine are almost "subfaction" in size and influence in the setting. Malarion has most of the Shadow Realm with his people and forces, he should be a MASSIVE player in the lore and setting with his armies sweeping aside others and doing big things. Instead the tiny subfaction of fanatical witch aelves is doing far far more from the smallest corner of the realm

chaos0xomega wrote:

The only chaos army that almost feels like GW want to put it in destruction is Beasts of Chaos because they clearly put the next BoC model into Destruction........... Which was a curious angle. However I don't see it happening. Whilst BoC is visually very much destruction and ghur and would really fit well at giving Destruction another force (esp something other than greenskins); their lore is very much steeped in Chaos and they've so many inter-links with the other Chaos forces (heck Slaanesh has their own Beast style models now) that I don't think it would happen. What will likely happen is whenever GW revises the range design for BoC they might well gain more Chaos style elements to their models.

At the same time GW might use the Kragnos situation to break a group of Beastmen free from the clutches of Chaos. Creating a new force for Destruction that shares some visual elements, but takes things in a new direction.

Yeah BoC should also be Destruction and with the focus on chaos essentially being 4 god-specific armies + the slaves to darkness as the undivided faction, I don't really think beastmen fit into the chaos grand alliance. Personally I think they should just move the beastmen over the destruction, it wouldn't be hard to rewrite the fluff to justify it (as it stands most of what ties them to chaos is basically just legacy WHFB fluff which can go away). They can take a similar angle to what I suggested for Skaven, "shunned by the chaos gods, they now seek only to destroy all that lays before them" or whatever. Hell, thats basically their fluff now, they are already a borderline destruction faction fluff-wise. The real chaos beasts are already partially present in their respective god specific armies (Slaangors and Tzaangors, missing Pestigors and Khorngors) as well as the ogroids/fomoroids. Minis wise, its worth mentioning that theres surprisingly little chaos iconography on the sculpts, what does exist is limited to a handful of models across a handful of older kits (and are generally so subtle they can be overlooked wholly or can be explained away as trophies taken from defeated enemies, etc.). As far as I can tell, none of the new post end-times beastmen sculpts (which really isn't many) have any sort of chaos iconography on them. Entirely possible that a range refresh of Gors/Ungors/Bestigors/Centigors, etc. breaks those links entirely. I think its entirely possible, using the existing model range, to basically do a chaos beastmen faction and a destruction beastmen faction. Personally I think the way they should go is to do what they are already doing and continue to fold in god-specific gors into the god themed factions (+ maybe more ogroid/fomoroid type things) + more ogroid/fomoroid and maybe undivided gors into slaves to darkness, and then do away with BOC as a standalone chaos faction and make them a destruction faction following Kragnos.

I wonder if GW might find that tough to sell. The time for shuffling things around would have been at launch when Age of Sigmar had no history, other than what was borrowed from Fantasy and could have as easily been discarded. In that regard it's a shame that the game and its background were in such a desolate state in the beginning. Half Bubblehammer, half reanimated carcass of the old game, with precious little direction or vision doesn't make for a compelling setting. They've improved since then, but I'm not sure now that they have six years and three editions of development behind them they'll dare to shake things up like that. AoS Beasts of Chaos may be Grand Alliance Chaos because of their Warhammer Fantasy legacy, but they've been that for the entire duration of AoS. Would be a pretty big change to rewrite that, and ask people that bought into their background for follow.

Seems like Skaven are in a similar boat. The Great Horned Rat as the fifth Chaos god has been one of the few things that set AoS apart. Might not be so desirable for GW to throw that out again.

I'm also not sure if GW even sees Destruction the way normal people do. For all it's the green people and fatties Grand Alliance, people are right to point out the potential for other factions in it. Yet the latest models and newest faction are an offshoot or orcs, so just more of the same. I'm not seeing GW's vision for a Grand Alliance Destruction expanded beyond the usual suspects.

 Overread wrote:

The surprise is that the Daughters of Khaine are almost "subfaction" in size and influence in the setting. Malarion has most of the Shadow Realm with his people and forces, he should be a MASSIVE player in the lore and setting with his armies sweeping aside others and doing big things. Instead the tiny subfaction of fanatical witch aelves is doing far far more from the smallest corner of the realm

The problem is that GW doesn't want to push a faction to prominence before there are models to sell. No models means that his group doesn't get talked about. The question is why we've waited so long, and how much longer we'll need to wait. IMO, the best time to release his group would have been shortly after the release of the Lumineth. This would have created a nice "Light vs Shadow" contrast that GW could have capitalized on. But they didn't do so.

So, we're stuck wondering how much longer GW is going to make us wait.

Dude Daemons should be Destruction LMAO.

Eumerin wrote:

 Overread wrote:

The surprise is that the Daughters of Khaine are almost "subfaction" in size and influence in the setting. Malarion has most of the Shadow Realm with his people and forces, he should be a MASSIVE player in the lore and setting with his armies sweeping aside others and doing big things. Instead the tiny subfaction of fanatical witch aelves is doing far far more from the smallest corner of the realm

The problem is that GW doesn't want to push a faction to prominence before there are models to sell. No models means that his group doesn't get talked about. The question is why we've waited so long, and how much longer we'll need to wait. IMO, the best time to release his group would have been shortly after the release of the Lumineth. This would have created a nice "Light vs Shadow" contrast that GW could have capitalized on. But they didn't do so.

So, we're stuck wondering how much longer GW is going to make us wait.

Which is why I was surprised when Ossiarchs came out. I love them and want them to get a second wave of models, but at the same time it was really odd to see a totally new factoin that had zero real hints in the story and lore beyond a few vague references in a side game until a few months before they were released. Meanwhile you have the Shadow Aelves almost causing lore and writing issues because a whole realm is sort of "inactive" save for the DoK running around.

Beasts are the original children of Chaos, along with Dragon ogres. Rewriting BoC out of chaos would not only be ludicrous but also seems pretty needless (why would anyone want this, for ingame mechanics or something? No, let's not thx).

I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

JWBS wrote:
Beasts are the original children of Chaos, along with Dragon ogres. Rewriting BoC out of chaos would not only be ludicrous but also seems pretty needless (why would anyone want this, for ingame mechanics or something? No, let's not thx).

Some would say AoS is ludicrous and pretty needless, so rewriting Beasts of Chaos would fit right in.

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

I thought it was more to have Destruction gain some width beyond ogres and orcs, and Kragnos's unexpected appearance there provided plenty of fuel for this change in particular.

 Geifer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

I thought it was more to have Destruction gain some width beyond ogres and orcs, and Kragnos's unexpected appearance there provided plenty of fuel for this change in particular.

By that logic then Kurnothi should also go in Destruction because they're half goat and have a centaur, even though they share no thematic traits with Destruction...

Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Plus GW already gave Fimir to Destruction. And before anyone wants to address the "Fimir in the room" about why they can't come back, remember that both BoC and WoC also have the same issue in earlier Warhammer lore. GW could literally wall paper over that with new lore and most fans wouldn't know the difference.

Beasts of chaos models are covered in chaos stars. Without a miniature revamp, moving to destruction seems like a non-starter.

Fimir are also in Total War

Skaven are further from Destruction than BoC, StD, or Khorne, and by a fair margin. I think there is just widespread misunderstanding about the faction identity and philosophy of Destruction; BoC have overlap but are still distinctly Chaos in outlook.

Does the whole grand alliance thing even matter anymore from a game perspective? An army's composition is based upon what is in its faction and to a lesser extent any allies allowed. As an example, seems like GW could easily allow Ogors access to BoC units as allies without breaking anything.

Grand Alliances still matter in terms of casual marketing from GW; in helping break up the armies into perhaps a more easily digested presentation of armies for a newbie (instead of 20+ "armies" its 4 Grand Alliances that then splinter down).

There's also general alliances between some armies within Grand Alliances. So that gives osme grounding as to why you can't just ally your Skaven with Daughters of Khaine or such.


Also story wise the GA system works too in giving a general flavour and idea for the forces. It can fall down a bit as people tend to interpret Order as "good" which hits a brick wall when you've factions like the Daughters of Khaine or when Seraphon just don't care about anyone or the Stormcast go on a purge of potentially infected humans.

From a game perspective its mostly alliances and such where it has an impact, otherwise its not really there any more in terms of Grand Alliance Armies (which is honestly a good thing and the rules for AoS really do reinforce taking majority of 1 army rather than messy allied blocks)

 Jack Flask wrote:
Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Humans are ostensibly an 'order' race, yet there are those that worship Chaos and are part of that alliance. If Beasts were made into a Destruction faction, the simple fix is that there are those who dedicate themselves to a Chaos god - Slaangor etc. - and transfer across in the same fashion.

 Equinox wrote:
Does the whole grand alliance thing even matter anymore from a game perspective? An army's composition is based upon what is in its faction and to a lesser extent any allies allowed. As an example, seems like GW could easily allow Ogors access to BoC units as allies without breaking anything.

Yes; there are a number of rules interactions referencing those keywords. Not common but they are there.


Though on a similar note I dislike the move away from keyword-based allegiances and the removal of Grand Alliance allegiances (even if they were narrative only).

Chikout wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
From TGA

GW sent a repack notification to a store for Dryads in error for the 23rd of July so the Order Battletome is Sylvaneth

We already knew that. The chaos book is Skaven.

Knew? Seen any actual official word on it?

Rumours!="we already knew it"

Rumours have said GSC vs Beasts. They have said ogors vs beasts. Rumours say lots of things.

Guess you are new with with GW if you assume just because something is rumoured means we know it for sure already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:


Which is why I was surprised when Ossiarchs came out. I love them and want them to get a second wave of models, but at the same time it was really odd to see a totally new factoin that had zero real hints in the story and lore beyond a few vague references in a side game until a few months before they were released. Meanwhile you have the Shadow Aelves almost causing lore and writing issues because a whole realm is sort of "inactive" save for the DoK running around.

Well GW sorted inactive realms by making only one realm active at time

 Geifer wrote:

I wonder if GW might find that tough to sell. The time for shuffling things around would have been at launch when Age of Sigmar had no history, other than what was borrowed from Fantasy and could have as easily been discarded. In that regard it's a shame that the game and its background were in such a desolate state in the beginning. Half Bubblehammer, half reanimated carcass of the old game, with precious little direction or vision doesn't make for a compelling setting. They've improved since then, but I'm not sure now that they have six years and three editions of development behind them they'll dare to shake things up like that. AoS Beasts of Chaos may be Grand Alliance Chaos because of their Warhammer Fantasy legacy, but they've been that for the entire duration of AoS. Would be a pretty big change to rewrite that, and ask people that bought into their background for follow.

Seems like Skaven are in a similar boat. The Great Horned Rat as the fifth Chaos god has been one of the few things that set AoS apart. Might not be so desirable for GW to throw that out again.

I'm also not sure if GW even sees Destruction the way normal people do. For all it's the green people and fatties Grand Alliance, people are right to point out the potential for other factions in it. Yet the latest models and newest faction are an offshoot or orcs, so just more of the same. I'm not seeing GW's vision for a Grand Alliance Destruction expanded beyond the usual suspects.

I don't think so, as others noted the Grand Alliances aren't as important as they were in 1st and early 2nd edition. GW has been shuffling things around (mostly within the grand alliances rather than across them) since AoS released and continues to do so though more subtly. It wasn't that long ago that Ogor Mawtribes were split into Gutbusters, Beastclaw Raiders, Firebellies, Maneaters, and there might have been 1-2 other subfactions (each made up of 1-2 units), its only recently that GW consolidated them all as a single faction. Likewise Cities of Sigmar merged something like a dozen different factions together (many of which only had a couple kits at most) in early/mid 2nd. The latest Orruks book semi-preserved 3 different subfactions as distinct but inter-mixable under the auspices of a bigger book, but in the process they basically killed off greenskinz and moved them to legends. The Soulblight Gravelords book killed Legions of Nagash, which in turn killed off Deathlords, Deathmages, Deadwalkers, Deathrattle, etc. Gloomspite Gitz killed off Spiderfang, Moonclan Grots, and Troggoths as being separate factions (though similar to Orruk Warclans you can kinda do them as sub-factions) and legendsized Gitmob Grotz. Etc. etc. etc. GW has been pretty successful at squatting entire factions out of the game without much uproar, and has likewise shifted some stuff around across grand alliances on a more limited basis - Fimir for example jumped to Destruction from Chaos, as did Troggoths (actually IIRC Troggoths jumped back and forth between Chaos and Destruction a couple times depending on the model, iirc Throgg became a generic Destruction Trogg King before being moved back to chaos as a Trogg King and then being legendified).

Fluffwise, I don't think the AoS community is as invested into the fluff as you do, I think for the most part hte fluff is paper thin and few people actually have dug into it very much. The fact that its only 6 years old and constantly changing doesn't help much as various characters/gods/places have been killed, captured, betrayed, destroyed, etc. multiple times since AoS launched to the point that I think most people aren't even really sure whats going on. Its the downside of evolving fluff (particularly in something so new), the lack of stability and consistency in something so new prevents most people from really latching on to it in a manner where they can speak authoritatively on their factions fluff. Hell, we just recently had an entire City of Sigmar destroyed and taken over by the Daughters of Khaine, one of the big ones too. Technically doesn't invalidate anyones army, but if you were collecting an Anvilgard army I suspect that you might not have distinct rules for it anymore in the next Cities of Sigmar book - assuming they don't remake the faction as "Dawnbringer Crusades" like some seem to be suggesting.

I think if the community can survive that, it can survive Skaven and/or Beastmen being rebranded to a Destruction faction.

As it stands, the GHR is currently a non-factor in the fluff anyway. His big thing was that he grew in power enough to force the other gods to admit him into the pantheon in Slaanesh's absence and was occupying Slaanesh's seat as a result - but Slaanesh is back now (and better than ever) and since then theres been nary a mention of the GHR. The fact that he was "admitted" into the chaos pantheon implies he can be removed from it (by force if necessary), and raises the idea that he can become an exile god no longer tied to chaos (as there are plenty of other gods in the setting that aren't chaos).

I would imagine a logical progression of the fluff to be that the GHR vows its revenge and decides to go Malal on chaos, vowing to destroy it because he got exiled from the patheon or whatever. Skaven fluff has always been about them "gnawing at the roots of civilization", whereas the GHR being a 5th chaos god was essentially a recent change rather than a core element of their identity, they were never considered a chaos faction in the WHFB era (except maybe during the end times), and the main drive for them to be treated as such was the result of Slaanesh's disappearance and absence, with the GHR seeing it as an opportunity to grow in power - with Slaanesh back there obviously needs to be an evolution of Skaven fluff of some sort (which doesn't automatically mean a move out of the chaos pantheon, mind you, but it seems a good/interesting avenue to take). Beyond that, the current skaven fluff paints them as destructive - the Great Horned Rat seeks to destroy and ruin the mortal realms as a means of gaining primacy over the other chaos gods - he very specifically wants to destroy the gods worshippers and followers (and anyone who might turn to their service) in an effort to weaken them, so that he himself can then destroy the other chaos gods. He also really enjoys watching the skaven fight amongst themselves too - in fact he makes a point of encouraging the skavens self-destructive behavior. Both of these things are awfully destructive, no?

And as it stands, the Destruction grand alliance is defined by those factions which are "akin in their culture and methods to natural disasters" and which seek to "bring destruction and ruin to all civilization". A plague of rats is certainly a natural disaster (just ask the Australians) - biblical even. I would argue that Skaven fit the definition of Destruction better than any of the actual Destruction factions do. Destruction factions are also described as being "intrinsically anarchic" which is more or less verbatim how the skaven are described in their own battletome. Behavior wise, Skaven are fairly similar to Orruks in terms of infighting, and similar to gitz/grots in terms of their tendency for backstabbing and treachery, and similar to ogors in their ravenous all-consuming hunger.

Beastmen likewise have a lot of the same stuff going for them, their hatred of civilization and desire to destroy it in all its forms being almost intrinsic to their fluff, as is the fact that they exist only to "wreak utter havoc upon everything in their path". Much of the fluff about them being "the original children of chaos" is actually no longer present in AoS, thats just 1 (well, maybe 2-ish) of 3 origin stories attributed to them. In many ways, they are now intrinsically tied to the realm of Ghur (which is, in particular, strongly aligned with forces of Destruction) as per the "legend of the alpha progenitor" origin story which is a legend amongst the beastmen tribes. The other 1.5 stories of them being chaos origin primarily originate from among the factions of order who say they are once normal mortals who have been corrupted and mutated by chaos, and is also heavily tied to some pretty heavy-handed allegory for real world racism, implying that chaos is not actually their original provenance but rather a more or less racist label being applied to them by the forces of order. The most recent fluff also has them making mass-migrations towards syish with rumors of them seeking to turn the black pyramid into a massive herdstone, which ties back to the story of the alpha progenitor and his creation of the herstones and eventual disappearance (hint: possibly seeking to bring back the Gorfather, i.e. their missing god born of Ghur, rather than chaos).

JWBS wrote:
Beasts are the original children of Chaos, along with Dragon ogres. Rewriting BoC out of chaos would not only be ludicrous but also seems pretty needless (why would anyone want this, for ingame mechanics or something? No, let's not thx).

Thats mostly WHFB fluff. Beastmen AoS fluff paints their "original children of chaos" bit as being accusations made by order, whereas the beastmen have a different origin story for themselves which *doesn't* involve chaos. As for Dragon Ogors, what little has been said of their fluff is that they are an ancient race which made a pact with the chaos gods long ago granting them eternal life in exchange for something, but hte pact has gone unfulfilled. Not exactly "original children" levels of fluff there.

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

For me its about theme. Thematically beastmen (and skaven) fit better thematically with Destruction (at least as far as what GW has written about the nature of Destruction and what defines it) than they do chaos. The fluff for both factions alude heavily towards a destructive nature rather than a chaotic one (though admittedly the fact that the GHR used chaos magic to populate the mortal realms with skaven - giving skaven more of a right to the title of "original children of chaos" than beastmen have - does give me some pause in that regard, but theres an out for the GHR from the chaos pantheon as I indicated previously).

 Jack Flask wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

I thought it was more to have Destruction gain some width beyond ogres and orcs, and Kragnos's unexpected appearance there provided plenty of fuel for this change in particular.

By that logic then Kurnothi should also go in Destruction because they're half goat and have a centaur, even though they share no thematic traits with Destruction...

Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Plus GW already gave Fimir to Destruction. And before anyone wants to address the "Fimir in the room" about why they can't come back, remember that both BoC and WoC also have the same issue in earlier Warhammer lore. GW could literally wall paper over that with new lore and most fans wouldn't know the difference.

As far as I am aware, Kurnothi have almost no real traits whatsoever because almost nothing has been written about them. I personally would love destruction elves. If chaos dwarves can exist, then surely destruction elves can too.

As for the godmarked varieties, they can stay in chaos where they are - in disciples of tzeentch and hedonites of slaanesh. Hell, no reason why there can't also be Chaos Bestigors and Chaos Gors in the Slaves to Darkness faction either, but as a full on army of beastmen I think they work better in Destruction instead of being a second-rate, second-fiddle, middling afterthought in chaos as they are now.

decker_cky wrote:
Beasts of chaos models are covered in chaos stars. Without a miniature revamp, moving to destruction seems like a non-starter.

Thats a huge stretch. I went through all the BoC minis yesterday looking for them, this is what I found:

*Endless Spells: 0 stars
*Herdstone: 0 stars
Gors: 4 stars on 4 models out of 10 (2 necklaces, 2 gut plates, though technically one of those is only around 1/3rd a star, but i'll allow it.)
Bullgors: 1 star on top of the optional banner.
**Jabberslythe: 0 stars
**Dragon Ogors: 1 star out of 3 models
**Dragon Ogor Shaggoth: 1 star
Ghorgon: 1 star, small, dangling from one of the horns above its head
Cygor: 0 stars, though I suppose an argument can be made that theres a small part of a crudely carved star on the bell hanging from its hip.
**Centigors: 2 stars both on the same 1 model out of 5
**Doombull: 0 stars
Bestigors: I could only find 1 star, on the optional bannerpole top
Tuskgor Chariot: 1 on the spearmans gutplate
*Grashraks Despoilers: 0 stars
Ungors: 0 stars
Ungor Raiders: Also 0 stars
Chaos Warhounds: 0 stars
**Razorgor: 0 stars
**Beastlord: 0 stars
Great Bray-Shaman: 0 stars
**Cockatrice: 0 stars


*New Age of Sigmar/post WHFB kits, none of them have stars and these presumably represent the future of the faction.
**finecast, will need to be resculpted into plastic, at which time removal of stars becomes convenient.

As it stands, most of the range is ancient and needs to be revamped, even then though they are far from "covered" in chaos stars, certainly not enough to stop a move to destruction. The newest kits actually produced for AoS have precisely 0 stars across them, and the last few kits produced for WHFB have none or very few. Even most of the older plastics have a literal handful of stars across the entire model range. For being the original children of chaos they don't seem to show it.

They would be in good company as a number of models in the Destruction range likewise have chaos stars on them as a result of wearing scavenged armor, etc. It woudl fit with the beastmen to do the same given they don't really have any industry of their own. Likewise, theres a few models in Destruction that started out in chaos, such as Fellwater Troggoths.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Jack Flask wrote:
Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Humans are ostensibly an 'order' race, yet there are those that worship Chaos and are part of that alliance. If Beasts were made into a Destruction faction, the simple fix is that there are those who dedicate themselves to a Chaos god - Slaangor etc. - and transfer across in the same fashion.

This guy gets it.

Thanks for posting that, chaos0xomega. Interesting read.

New Ur-gold Rune rules :

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/02/10/ur-gold-is-so-hot-right-now-fyreslayers-runes-are-getting-a-lot-better/

chaos0xomega wrote:

Spoiler:

 Geifer wrote:

I wonder if GW might find that tough to sell. The time for shuffling things around would have been at launch when Age of Sigmar had no history, other than what was borrowed from Fantasy and could have as easily been discarded. In that regard it's a shame that the game and its background were in such a desolate state in the beginning. Half Bubblehammer, half reanimated carcass of the old game, with precious little direction or vision doesn't make for a compelling setting. They've improved since then, but I'm not sure now that they have six years and three editions of development behind them they'll dare to shake things up like that. AoS Beasts of Chaos may be Grand Alliance Chaos because of their Warhammer Fantasy legacy, but they've been that for the entire duration of AoS. Would be a pretty big change to rewrite that, and ask people that bought into their background for follow.

Seems like Skaven are in a similar boat. The Great Horned Rat as the fifth Chaos god has been one of the few things that set AoS apart. Might not be so desirable for GW to throw that out again.

I'm also not sure if GW even sees Destruction the way normal people do. For all it's the green people and fatties Grand Alliance, people are right to point out the potential for other factions in it. Yet the latest models and newest faction are an offshoot or orcs, so just more of the same. I'm not seeing GW's vision for a Grand Alliance Destruction expanded beyond the usual suspects.

I don't think so, as others noted the Grand Alliances aren't as important as they were in 1st and early 2nd edition. GW has been shuffling things around (mostly within the grand alliances rather than across them) since AoS released and continues to do so though more subtly. It wasn't that long ago that Ogor Mawtribes were split into Gutbusters, Beastclaw Raiders, Firebellies, Maneaters, and there might have been 1-2 other subfactions (each made up of 1-2 units), its only recently that GW consolidated them all as a single faction. Likewise Cities of Sigmar merged something like a dozen different factions together (many of which only had a couple kits at most) in early/mid 2nd. The latest Orruks book semi-preserved 3 different subfactions as distinct but inter-mixable under the auspices of a bigger book, but in the process they basically killed off greenskinz and moved them to legends. The Soulblight Gravelords book killed Legions of Nagash, which in turn killed off Deathlords, Deathmages, Deadwalkers, Deathrattle, etc. Gloomspite Gitz killed off Spiderfang, Moonclan Grots, and Troggoths as being separate factions (though similar to Orruk Warclans you can kinda do them as sub-factions) and legendsized Gitmob Grotz. Etc. etc. etc. GW has been pretty successful at squatting entire factions out of the game without much uproar, and has likewise shifted some stuff around across grand alliances on a more limited basis - Fimir for example jumped to Destruction from Chaos, as did Troggoths (actually IIRC Troggoths jumped back and forth between Chaos and Destruction a couple times depending on the model, iirc Throgg became a generic Destruction Trogg King before being moved back to chaos as a Trogg King and then being legendified).

Fluffwise, I don't think the AoS community is as invested into the fluff as you do, I think for the most part hte fluff is paper thin and few people actually have dug into it very much. The fact that its only 6 years old and constantly changing doesn't help much as various characters/gods/places have been killed, captured, betrayed, destroyed, etc. multiple times since AoS launched to the point that I think most people aren't even really sure whats going on. Its the downside of evolving fluff (particularly in something so new), the lack of stability and consistency in something so new prevents most people from really latching on to it in a manner where they can speak authoritatively on their factions fluff. Hell, we just recently had an entire City of Sigmar destroyed and taken over by the Daughters of Khaine, one of the big ones too. Technically doesn't invalidate anyones army, but if you were collecting an Anvilgard army I suspect that you might not have distinct rules for it anymore in the next Cities of Sigmar book - assuming they don't remake the faction as "Dawnbringer Crusades" like some seem to be suggesting.

I think if the community can survive that, it can survive Skaven and/or Beastmen being rebranded to a Destruction faction.

As it stands, the GHR is currently a non-factor in the fluff anyway. His big thing was that he grew in power enough to force the other gods to admit him into the pantheon in Slaanesh's absence and was occupying Slaanesh's seat as a result - but Slaanesh is back now (and better than ever) and since then theres been nary a mention of the GHR. The fact that he was "admitted" into the chaos pantheon implies he can be removed from it (by force if necessary), and raises the idea that he can become an exile god no longer tied to chaos (as there are plenty of other gods in the setting that aren't chaos).

I would imagine a logical progression of the fluff to be that the GHR vows its revenge and decides to go Malal on chaos, vowing to destroy it because he got exiled from the patheon or whatever. Skaven fluff has always been about them "gnawing at the roots of civilization", whereas the GHR being a 5th chaos god was essentially a recent change rather than a core element of their identity, they were never considered a chaos faction in the WHFB era (except maybe during the end times), and the main drive for them to be treated as such was the result of Slaanesh's disappearance and absence, with the GHR seeing it as an opportunity to grow in power - with Slaanesh back there obviously needs to be an evolution of Skaven fluff of some sort (which doesn't automatically mean a move out of the chaos pantheon, mind you, but it seems a good/interesting avenue to take). Beyond that, the current skaven fluff paints them as destructive - the Great Horned Rat seeks to destroy and ruin the mortal realms as a means of gaining primacy over the other chaos gods - he very specifically wants to destroy the gods worshippers and followers (and anyone who might turn to their service) in an effort to weaken them, so that he himself can then destroy the other chaos gods. He also really enjoys watching the skaven fight amongst themselves too - in fact he makes a point of encouraging the skavens self-destructive behavior. Both of these things are awfully destructive, no?

And as it stands, the Destruction grand alliance is defined by those factions which are "akin in their culture and methods to natural disasters" and which seek to "bring destruction and ruin to all civilization". A plague of rats is certainly a natural disaster (just ask the Australians) - biblical even. I would argue that Skaven fit the definition of Destruction better than any of the actual Destruction factions do. Destruction factions are also described as being "intrinsically anarchic" which is more or less verbatim how the skaven are described in their own battletome. Behavior wise, Skaven are fairly similar to Orruks in terms of infighting, and similar to gitz/grots in terms of their tendency for backstabbing and treachery, and similar to ogors in their ravenous all-consuming hunger.

Beastmen likewise have a lot of the same stuff going for them, their hatred of civilization and desire to destroy it in all its forms being almost intrinsic to their fluff, as is the fact that they exist only to "wreak utter havoc upon everything in their path". Much of the fluff about them being "the original children of chaos" is actually no longer present in AoS, thats just 1 (well, maybe 2-ish) of 3 origin stories attributed to them. In many ways, they are now intrinsically tied to the realm of Ghur (which is, in particular, strongly aligned with forces of Destruction) as per the "legend of the alpha progenitor" origin story which is a legend amongst the beastmen tribes. The other 1.5 stories of them being chaos origin primarily originate from among the factions of order who say they are once normal mortals who have been corrupted and mutated by chaos, and is also heavily tied to some pretty heavy-handed allegory for real world racism, implying that chaos is not actually their original provenance but rather a more or less racist label being applied to them by the forces of order. The most recent fluff also has them making mass-migrations towards syish with rumors of them seeking to turn the black pyramid into a massive herdstone, which ties back to the story of the alpha progenitor and his creation of the herstones and eventual disappearance (hint: possibly seeking to bring back the Gorfather, i.e. their missing god born of Ghur, rather than chaos).

JWBS wrote:
Beasts are the original children of Chaos, along with Dragon ogres. Rewriting BoC out of chaos would not only be ludicrous but also seems pretty needless (why would anyone want this, for ingame mechanics or something? No, let's not thx).

Thats mostly WHFB fluff. Beastmen AoS fluff paints their "original children of chaos" bit as being accusations made by order, whereas the beastmen have a different origin story for themselves which *doesn't* involve chaos. As for Dragon Ogors, what little has been said of their fluff is that they are an ancient race which made a pact with the chaos gods long ago granting them eternal life in exchange for something, but hte pact has gone unfulfilled. Not exactly "original children" levels of fluff there.

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

For me its about theme. Thematically beastmen (and skaven) fit better thematically with Destruction (at least as far as what GW has written about the nature of Destruction and what defines it) than they do chaos. The fluff for both factions alude heavily towards a destructive nature rather than a chaotic one (though admittedly the fact that the GHR used chaos magic to populate the mortal realms with skaven - giving skaven more of a right to the title of "original children of chaos" than beastmen have - does give me some pause in that regard, but theres an out for the GHR from the chaos pantheon as I indicated previously).

 Jack Flask wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I think the only reason people want beasts in Destruction is so that GW might do a full animal beast type army

I thought it was more to have Destruction gain some width beyond ogres and orcs, and Kragnos's unexpected appearance there provided plenty of fuel for this change in particular.

By that logic then Kurnothi should also go in Destruction because they're half goat and have a centaur, even though they share no thematic traits with Destruction...

Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Plus GW already gave Fimir to Destruction. And before anyone wants to address the "Fimir in the room" about why they can't come back, remember that both BoC and WoC also have the same issue in earlier Warhammer lore. GW could literally wall paper over that with new lore and most fans wouldn't know the difference.

As far as I am aware, Kurnothi have almost no real traits whatsoever because almost nothing has been written about them. I personally would love destruction elves. If chaos dwarves can exist, then surely destruction elves can too.

As for the godmarked varieties, they can stay in chaos where they are - in disciples of tzeentch and hedonites of slaanesh. Hell, no reason why there can't also be Chaos Bestigors and Chaos Gors in the Slaves to Darkness faction either, but as a full on army of beastmen I think they work better in Destruction instead of being a second-rate, second-fiddle, middling afterthought in chaos as they are now.

decker_cky wrote:
Beasts of chaos models are covered in chaos stars. Without a miniature revamp, moving to destruction seems like a non-starter.

Thats a huge stretch. I went through all the BoC minis yesterday looking for them, this is what I found:

*Endless Spells: 0 stars
*Herdstone: 0 stars
Gors: 4 stars on 4 models out of 10 (2 necklaces, 2 gut plates, though technically one of those is only around 1/3rd a star, but i'll allow it.)
Bullgors: 1 star on top of the optional banner.
**Jabberslythe: 0 stars
**Dragon Ogors: 1 star out of 3 models
**Dragon Ogor Shaggoth: 1 star
Ghorgon: 1 star, small, dangling from one of the horns above its head
Cygor: 0 stars, though I suppose an argument can be made that theres a small part of a crudely carved star on the bell hanging from its hip.
**Centigors: 2 stars both on the same 1 model out of 5
**Doombull: 0 stars
Bestigors: I could only find 1 star, on the optional bannerpole top
Tuskgor Chariot: 1 on the spearmans gutplate
*Grashraks Despoilers: 0 stars
Ungors: 0 stars
Ungor Raiders: Also 0 stars
Chaos Warhounds: 0 stars
**Razorgor: 0 stars
**Beastlord: 0 stars
Great Bray-Shaman: 0 stars
**Cockatrice: 0 stars


*New Age of Sigmar/post WHFB kits, none of them have stars and these presumably represent the future of the faction.
**finecast, will need to be resculpted into plastic, at which time removal of stars becomes convenient.

As it stands, most of the range is ancient and needs to be revamped, even then though they are far from "covered" in chaos stars, certainly not enough to stop a move to destruction. The newest kits actually produced for AoS have precisely 0 stars across them, and the last few kits produced for WHFB have none or very few. Even most of the older plastics have a literal handful of stars across the entire model range. For being the original children of chaos they don't seem to show it.

They would be in good company as a number of models in the Destruction range likewise have chaos stars on them as a result of wearing scavenged armor, etc. It woudl fit with the beastmen to do the same given they don't really have any industry of their own. Likewise, theres a few models in Destruction that started out in chaos, such as Fellwater Troggoths.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Jack Flask wrote:
Plus every time someone brings up moving BoC to Destruction they conveniently leave out the god marked varieties, or say they don't count, even though they are now in the Battletome and very much linked to the army lore/identity.

Humans are ostensibly an 'order' race, yet there are those that worship Chaos and are part of that alliance. If Beasts were made into a Destruction faction, the simple fix is that there are those who dedicate themselves to a Chaos god - Slaangor etc. - and transfer across in the same fashion.

This guy gets it.

Nice write-up. Agree with the concept of Destruction Beasts and would welcome it. Their whole concept of anarchy and tearing down the trappings of civilization would make them at home in Destruction. Their Chaos element seems to be more the primordial devolution into a fleshy mass of madness as the ultimate goal. But that can be split. One side embracing their bestial nature and more tearing things down vs the other seeing their ultimate higher form as some fleshy writhing soupy mass. It would be a great idea of Beastmen who "fell" to Destruction. The chaos side of them looking at horror at their brethren who have "lost" their way.

Simply having it that it's sub-faction are either Chaos or Destruction with some units being exclusive to one or the other is an easy concept.

On the other hand, see Skaven as purely Chaos. They seek to overthrow civilization, but also replace it with their own mockery of it. They have too many trapping of "civilization" and technology to be Destruction. The mad scientist/creator aspects of Skyre and Moulder seem to antithetical to the ideas of Destruction.

The odd thing with Chaos, as a faction, it is far more organized and hierarchical than it's faction title would imply.

But also, with Beastmen, looking forward to the WD update for them. While not amazing, it is a solid update. For those that didn't see the leaks. Heardstone now provides table wide additional -1 rend for the army that goes to -2 starting turn 3. BS immunity is gone and now is halve BS loss and rally on +4. This ability has a range that starts at 12" and expands 6" each turn. New monstrous reactions for several BoC monsters. Plus the usual new Grand Strategies and Battle Tactics.

It doesn't address a number of issues with the army, but is better than the slap in the face joke update from the Broken Realms books.

 Geifer wrote:
Thanks for posting that, chaos0xomega. Interesting read.

Interesting indeed. Wildly inaccurate, but still interesting.

The herdstone is great buff. Battle tactics has solid ones and these alone are huge help in edition of battle tactics. Monstorous actions seems interesting.

chaos0xomega wrote:
GHR being a 5th chaos god was essentially a recent change rather than a core element of their identity, they were never considered a chaos faction in the WHFB era

The Horned Rat was the fifth Chaos god in the 'Chaos in the Old World' board game.

Vermin Lord has always been a greater daemon iirc, though I haven't read wfb lore for decades so could be wrong. Skaven weren't ever a chaos faction though.

JWBS wrote:
Vermin Lord has always been a greater daemon iirc, though I haven't read wfb lore for decades so could be wrong. Skaven weren't ever a chaos faction though.

My third edition WFB Armies book says, "Skaven are the children and servants of Chaos".

Hmm okay fair enough.