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straken619 wrote: There is a lot of talk here about the technology of CoS.
First of all, they might not have the money to arm every man with the latest weapon. Do you all drive teslas here?
I mean... the basic unit has plain axes and shields.
Quite an absurd comparison.
Up until now, the freeguild handgunners have been one of the Freeguild/cities of sigmar units representing just basic gun-equipped humans, and they have muskets. Now, we get a new cities of sigmar army...and they've gone backwards from that standard of technology that they just - and still do - have. And not only that, but the armour has gone from something simple to an elaborate uniform involving multiple types of armour and decorative metalwork. If they could equip handgunners, and they can equip these guys in that armour, then "they can't afford it" doesn't hold up as an excuse for that.
And just what would you expect shields and axes to be replaced with? There isn't a "latest weapon" that's obviously more technologically advanced than those are.
And you are saying that they have Cogforts and stuff. Do you have any idea what the Imperium has in 40k?
And the imperial guards look exactly like soldiers look now. Even though it's 38.000 years later!
The Imperium isn't meant to be some technologically advanced group using some high-tech sci-fi overtly futuristic looking gear overall. There's a specific reason they look like that, because technology, science and progress are all concepts that have been effectively abandoned and they're making use of whatever they have available that does the job good enough.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/11 10:58:16
And you are saying that they have Cogforts and stuff. Do you have any idea what the Imperium has in 40k?
And the imperial guards look exactly like soldiers look now. Even though it's 38.000 years later!
The Imperium isn't meant to be some technologically advanced group using some high-tech sci-fi overtly futuristic looking gear overall. There's a specific reason they look like that, because technology, science and progress are all concepts that have been effectively abandoned and they're making use of whatever they have available that does the job good enough.
Yep. Consider that the Imperium of Man also makes Space Marines and the only reason they don't just make more of them is basically a religious argument coupled to a 10thousand year fear of another uprising and powerstruggles between different parties and all. Even with the new Primaris that only worked because it was basically built in secret as an army and hidden away from all the infighting and all. Plus even with them there's still potential that a whole swathe of the Imperium could declare them unclean or corrupted or not in the Emperor's Vision or whatever and splinter off.
The Imperium is not sane. Their approach to technology is religious not scientific coupled with some deep seated phobias. Heck just to avoid AI systems and computers they are willing to create servitors. Either using regular people or bred clones (for the most part) to create cyborg slaves. These are also very common, its not rare tech, its your every day tech.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Seriously dude, it's a green portcullis. Not everything needs politics shoved into it.
Just look up what Tsagualsa was talking about.
Spoiler:
Personally I can see the similarities. I don't think it was made on purpose. But put yourself into their shoes. What would you think if you saw something so similar to the emblem used by your local fascists in a miniature game. Personally I think it's first thing I would notice. No politics needed
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Seriously dude, it's a green portcullis. Not everything needs politics shoved into it.
Just look up what Tsagualsa was talking about.
Spoiler:
Personally I can see the similarities. I don't think it was made on purpose. But put yourself into their shoes. What would you think if you saw something so similar to the emblem used by your local fascists in a miniature game. Personally I think it's first thing I would notice. No politics needed
I mean, not really? Looks more like a grid than a portcullis, to me anyway. Doesn't even have any spike shaping at the base or on the top like the painted one. Seems quite a stretch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/11 11:50:04
overall I like the gunners most from the new models, but there are several things that bother me and don't "work"
Shields having holes is just a bad idea and even if it looks cool it would be the first thing the gunners improvise during a campaign to get those closed (so removing the feet to get flat on the ground and stuff something in the metal)
also the bayonet is a problem, as in the need for dedicated hand gunners next to melee troops was because there was no 1 weapon that could do both, which changed with the bayonet
if the Cities already have that on hand guns, there would be no need for other infantry (without guns) next to cavalry
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
See something like bayonets I can accept alongside line infantry as a period of technological and army theory change. Ergo its a really new idea and its not tested as much in battle so you've got them but army commanders aren't sure how to best use them and the yare sure how to use their line infantry and such.
Plus close combat in Warhammer games is a big thing. There are many races that will dodge/shrug off or magically deflect ranged weapons. There's a lot of reason to have dedicated close combat units focused on nothing but close combat training and such to be ready for when things get up close and personal.
Not to mention that like many fantasy settings, Warhammer has that element of skill focused training. You train in the 1 thing you do and as a result you do it REALLY well, but its the only thing you do. Only heroes cross-train
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/13 08:44:52
Hm, not a fan of the pavise design (stubby "legs", too much scrollwork deco).
Not directly related to AoS/CoS, but this article gives some nice background info on ancient
Ming dynasty guns (including a "composite" weapon with a handgun, shield, spear and axe) :
kodos wrote: also the bayonet is a problem, as in the need for dedicated hand gunners next to melee troops was because there was no 1 weapon that could do both, which changed with the bayonet
if the Cities already have that on hand guns, there would be no need for other infantry (without guns) next to cavalry
Um, no. Just no. Gun with bayonet is no replacement for a proper spear, or better yet, pike. Units of pikemen were used well into Napoleonic wars, despite far better guns, because there was nothing better to tackle cavalry (or indeed, charge gunmen with their silly bayonets). It's only when the artillery weight of fire became too great threat to packed units that can't defend themselves at range these were finally withdrawn. If anything, the problem with these bayonets is the fact they would complicate reloading and such an offset design to facilitate this would be much less effective. I'd do hinged bayonets folded back instead of this here.
kodos wrote: Shields having holes is just a bad idea and even if it looks cool it would be the first thing the gunners improvise during a campaign to get those closed (so removing the feet to get flat on the ground and stuff something in the metal)
You what?
What you said makes no sense as if anything, they would make legs taller (because opponent can't hit that low under shield anyway, see oh, every single hand shield design in history), but there is a limit to this - the shield acts as a gun support, so you'd want the legs tailored to natural shooting stance of every gunner. Ditto with metalwork, makes perfect sense as it has holes small enough to stop all sword/axe cuts and thrusts well, while offering good visibility - these are gunners, they need to see where they are shooting (and 'peek above shield rim' is not an answer because that's where the smoke from a salvo will be the thickest so you need a way to see under that)...
kodos wrote: also the bayonet is a problem, as in the need for dedicated hand gunners next to melee troops was because there was no 1 weapon that could do both, which changed with the bayonet
if the Cities already have that on hand guns, there would be no need for other infantry (without guns) next to cavalry
Um, no. Just no. Gun with bayonet is no replacement for a proper spear, or better yet, pike. Units of pikemen were used well into Napoleonic wars, despite far better guns, because there was nothing better to tackle cavalry (or indeed, charge gunmen with their silly bayonets). It's only when the artillery weight of fire became too great threat to packed units that can't defend themselves at range these were finally withdrawn. If anything, the problem with these bayonets is the fact they would complicate reloading and such an offset design to facilitate this would be much less effective. I'd do hinged bayonets folded back instead of this here.
kodos wrote: Shields having holes is just a bad idea and even if it looks cool it would be the first thing the gunners improvise during a campaign to get those closed (so removing the feet to get flat on the ground and stuff something in the metal)
You what?
What you said makes no sense as if anything, they would make legs taller (because opponent can't hit that low under shield anyway, see oh, every single hand shield design in history), but there is a limit to this - the shield acts as a gun support, so you'd want the legs tailored to natural shooting stance of every gunner. Ditto with metalwork, makes perfect sense as it has holes small enough to stop all sword/axe cuts and thrusts well, while offering good visibility - these are gunners, they need to see where they are shooting (and 'peek above shield rim' is not an answer because that's where the smoke from a salvo will be the thickest so you need a way to see under that)...
Also, actual pavises are not 'shields' in the conventional sense, they're barely mobile; it's a piece of wall/cover you lug into position and then use as a entrenched firing position, mostly (but not only) in siegework or in large battles where it takes literally days for the armies to move into position and get settled in before the confrontation (take e.g. Crecy with the famous Genovese Crossbowmen as an example: pre-battle manoeuvering and skirmishes took three days, and happened in an area of just about 6 miles along a river and inside a valley). Having legs on it is not a hindrance at all for how they would be used, you'd be standing inside some sort of trench or otherwise fortified position anyway. And if your enemy was close enough for you to need bajonets, your plan would be shot to hell already anyway.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Shame about the Phoenix Guard and Sisters of the Thorn. Eh about everything else.
I still feel sorry for the wood elf kits (especially the ones that died in previous cullings). They were good kits, and had a bizarrely short lifespan after a long, long wait for that update.
Weird. Was talking with friends on Tuesday night about the new Cities of Cigmar gunners, and how it didn't make sense for them to have such primitive firearms when regular handgunners exist.
I mentioned that they could Squat the Empire Handgunner kit tomorrow, and suddenly that wouldn't be the case.
I was wrong. They didn't Squat the Empire Handgunner kit the next day. Took 'em a whole extra day to do it, Squatting them on the Thursday night.
Flagellants survive the purge, guess no fanatic kits are coming with the new range. Also the Steam tank is kicking around. so no big chungus cog contraption?
Lending more to this being wave one, and the rest to come out in AOS 4th edt.
"There are some awesome artillery reveals still to come"
In response to a question about what is replacing the Helstorm and Volleygun arty pieces.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I'm surprised by the Demigryphs getting the axe. They're just okay-ish models with good riders but wonky mounts*, but they are pretty "AoS" as a concept - and in my mind still one of the newer Empire kits...I'm officially old, I guess. I guess the Stormcast having basically the same thing but with nicer sculpts and new cavalry coming out with horses that might be bigger than the "monstrous" mounts makes the kit fully irrelevant.
*the heads are so bad...I decapitated one I got from a bits site and used one of the smaller heads of the two-headed griffon to make a big gryph-hound before those were a thing.
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
Not surprised by Demigryphs getting the axe. They weren't a well-received unit from the outset, and now they can get beefed up to be something more akin to Bruckner & Reaper.
