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Check out the Eldar vs. Marines battle report in the 5th ed rulebook.

Some thing that spring to mind:

Autocannon/HB Predator: 85 points.
Un-upgraded Rhino: 35 points.
10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points

And then a tip in the report itself discusses marine tactical squads splitting into combat squads.

So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:

- Cheap, cheap, cheap predator sponsons. Of course, they're much weaker than they used to be, but 85 points is a really good deal for an autocannon/hb pred, even if sponsons are weak.

- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.

- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.

- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.

- Combat squads are the Way Things Work in 5th.

Lowinor wrote:Check out the Eldar vs. Marines battle report in the 5th ed rulebook.

Some thing that spring to mind:

Autocannon/HB Predator: 85 points.
Un-upgraded Rhino: 35 points.
10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points

And then a tip in the report itself discusses marine tactical squads splitting into combat squads.

So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:

- Cheap, cheap, cheap predator sponsons. Of course, they're much weaker than they used to be, but 85 points is a really good deal for an autocannon/hb pred, even if sponsons are weak.

- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.

- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.

- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.

- Combat squads are the Way Things Work in 5th.

cheaper as dex = -70 vs more expensive = +83 =>result +13 up!

heavy price tag :
without new features: Cybot +25, Cpt +25.
pay for rules: scouts +25.

Sounds very reasonable NOT.

The basic crap CSM would cost 175 for 10+flamer and ML, without any special rule or reroll.

Good catch Lowinor.

18 Points for scouts without any upgrades is a pretty heavy price though.

They better be GOOD!

Kallbrand wrote:Sounds very reasonable NOT.

The basic crap CSM would cost 175 for 10+flamer and ML, without any special rule or reroll.

CSM: 10x15+5+10=165

SM 2004: 10x15+6+10=166
SM from above play-example: 170

result = 2004 SM/CSM => same price, 2008 SM/CSM => SM+5 points (for combat squad rule?)

Ahh, my bad on the calqulation abit, am so used to including the IoCG that I forgot it.

SM is +5 pts for ATSKNF, combat squad and combat tactics. Or 5 points less if compared to someone that might reroll LD, if the icon carrier is still alive.
The comparison to old SM is almost as disturbing, +4 points for combatsquads, combat tactics and boltpistol/bolter combination.

don't now I think duvel beats any iris brue belgium is da land of de beer (dark and light ) hell even half de iris ale's are like cat piss ( and england hasn't even got a good ale any wear )

Deadshane1 wrote:If all this is true, hopefully the point cost will be astronimical for all those toys...evening it out.

They better be! Hope the future NON Marine dexes get all this effort put in!

Lowinor wrote:10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter: 170 points
10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher: 170 points
5 man scout squad (with no listed upgraded): 90 points
10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist: 235 points

...

So, if this is correct (and not a result of GW's notoriously erroneous battle reports), some things to glean:

...

- Heavy bolters and missile launchers cost the same amount.

- The "buy ten marines, get flamer + weak^H^H^H^Hcheaper heavy weapon free" rumor fits, just with 17 point marines. Which is a slight point increase, as (from memory at least, I don't have my SM codex handy), that's a 9 and 4 point increase in cost over the current codex respectively.

- Something in assault marines is (slightly) cheaper.

Sorry to disagree, but I think you're going to find that space marines will again cost 15 points each
(HINT: the rulebook says so when talking about comparative points costs of marines vs. orks and quotes Marines as 15)

In the above examples:

10-man tactical squad with flamer + heavy bolter is
10x 15pts
1 x 5pts flamer
1x 15 points heavy bolter

10-man tactical squad with flamer + missile launcher is the same, just that MLs will also be 15 points for tacticals

As for assault marines, they'll be costed the same as CSM, which is 20 points per.
And so, 10-man assault squad with vet. sergeant with power fist comes to 235 points thus
10x 20pts
1x 15pts vet sgt
1x20 pts power fist

All pretty standard comparison to the CSM points for likewise. Why do Marines get the combat tactics rules and apparently ATSKNF (or similar) for no more? Who knows? Apart from the obvious sales implicatons, of course.

Which means that Fists have gotten worse in the new rules, and gone up in price.

Good ol' GW over-balancing.

BYE

Oh and by the way, I didn't see mention of the rumours over at Warseer of Razorbacks going back to toting various weapon fits again: twin HB, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, Multimelta, Lascannon, and the old Lascannon with twin plasma guns

As per http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146067

Since they are available as transports, and you can now select a squad bigger than the capacity of your transport, what price the option of multiple light weapon platforms which I recall was all the rage in 3rd edition?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Which means that Fists have gotten worse in the new rules, and gone up in price.

Good ol' GW over-balancing.

BYE

Well, first of all, I just realised that power fists are actually 25 points in the CSM codex, so 20 points (if right) would mean a relative bargain compared to their spiky cousins. Secondly, define over balancing, in a way that doesn't scream 'subjective reasoning'

I beleive you may actually have to pay an extra 5 points in there somewhere and then the only difference from the current codex as to marine price is you have to buy the terminator honours upgrade for the seargent like in the DA book. There it is 165 for ten marines. So maybe they just had to pay 5 for a heavy?

Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.

Seeing as how GW has actually done a great job with the generic lists for all armies in 40k and Fantasy the last 2-3 years, I have a hard time believing that the Space Marines will be "broken." Every new idea/set of rules always feels busted until people get used to playing with, and/or against it.

DonkeyCannon wrote:Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.

It has been posted that loyalist marines will have the bolt pistol, CC, bolt gun, frag, krak combo also. If so, 15 points per marine will seem quite a deal if they also have combat tactics and ATSKNF (or it's replacement)

Tribune wrote:

DonkeyCannon wrote:Something I haven't heard mentioned yet. Chaos Space Marines come with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CC Weapon. As far as I know Space Marines come with Bolter and Bolt Pistol OR CC Weapon. In close combat 10 Chaos Space Marines have the attacks of 20 standard Space Marines. I don't care what they do in the new Space Marine codex CSM are still amazing.

It has been posted that loyalist marines will have the bolt pistol, CC, bolt gun, frag, krak combo also. If so, 15 points per marine will seem quite a deal if they also have combat tactics and ATSKNF (or it's replacement)

I've seen it rumored with or without the close combat weapons -- bolter, bolt pistol, krak (which are actually useful now) and frag all standard. Big question is if they get that second attack -- personally I'd be very surprised if they do.

It's a big deal if they don't get the CCW, as you rightly say. It would allow CSM to retain their flavour as the somewhat more CC oriented force, if so.

I'd guess SM to be:
- Bolter
- BP *or* CCW (not both)
- Frag & Krak

If SM are B&BP&CCW, that's just too much rules advantage on top of the CSM gear profile. I know GW loves their SM, but I can't see them going that far to make CSM so obsolete so quickly.

Well if Marines do get the BP and CCW + Bolter, then all us chaos players can just use "counts as" and use the regular marine dex for our Chaos fun.

This is how it would work;
Dreadnought = Chaos Dread (and no fire frenzy!)
Siege Dreadnought = Defiler/Soulgrinder
Scouts = Lesser Demons (And get 4+ save + infiltrate!)
Land Raider = Chaos Land Raider (with a machine spirit!)
Sternguard Vets = Thousand Sons (with extra ammo!)

Etc...

It actually works out pretty nicely!

whitedragon wrote:Well if Marines do get the BP and CCW + Bolter, then all us chaos players can just use "counts as" and use the regular marine dex for our Chaos fun.

This is how it would work;
Dreadnought = Chaos Dread (and no fire frenzy!)
Siege Dreadnought = Defiler/Soulgrinder
Scouts = Lesser Demons (And get 4+ save + infiltrate!)
Land Raider = Chaos Land Raider (with a machine spirit!)
Sternguard Vets = Thousand Sons (with extra ammo!)

Etc...

It actually works out pretty nicely!

Hilariously I remember when it worked the other way and lapdogs paraded as spikies to get the cool toys!



*death*

- Salvage

whitedragon wrote:Well if Marines do get the BP and CCW + Bolter, then all us chaos players can just use "counts as" and use the regular marine dex for our Chaos fun.

This is how it would work;
Dreadnought = Chaos Dread (and no fire frenzy!)
Siege Dreadnought = Defiler/Soulgrinder
Scouts = Lesser Demons (And get 4+ save + infiltrate!)
Land Raider = Chaos Land Raider (with a machine spirit!)
Sternguard Vets = Thousand Sons (with extra ammo!)

Etc...

It actually works out pretty nicely!

Hey, that does work nicely!

And with LEGION muddying the fluff waters so well, ALPHA's as loyalists, for real, for the win!

JohnHwangDD wrote:If SM are B&BP&CCW, that's just too much rules advantage on top of the CSM gear profile. I know GW loves their SM, but I can't see them going that far to make CSM so obsolete so quickly.

John, come on now, the GW response will obviously be 'But Chaos get those amazing icons. Be Happy!'

A combo of Bolter & Bolt pistol or close combat weapon & grenades strikes me as highly retarded. I mean, the codex is supposed to be customizable (you know, lack of traits etc.), so more melee orientated chapters are supposed to be able to get a Bolt pistol & close combat weapon option.

I bet my donkey on it!

Greets
Schepp himself

Melee-oriented chapters can take WS3 Sv4+ Scouts, or they can pay more points for the privilege to play as Red Marines or Black Marines.

Red Marines don't even have BP/CCW and they're RED! If they want BP/CCW they have to buy assault maines.

I can't see them handing that out to every chapter. Then the Black marines would complain.

And I certainly would hope that the Pfist would go up in price to 25 points to match CSM, IG, DH, and every other codex that uses them.

I hope power fists remain cheap due to not being able to get more than a single attack with it unless you have two.

That and I will miss the incessant whining about Space marines if they raise the prices.

Please GW, please don't allow the kneejerk reactions of the overly sensitive butterflies to go away.

Hellfury wrote:I hope power fists remain cheap due to not being able to get more than a single attack with it unless you have two.

That and I will miss the incessant whining about Space marines if they raise the prices.

Please GW, please don't allow the kneejerk reactions of the overly sensitive butterflies to go away.

You mean reduce prices for Powerfists like in the C:CSM, DA, and BA codexes/lists? The ones that were 'made with 5th edition in mind'? Those prices?

Certainly there wouldn't be any whining if they reduced them in the marine dex compared to every other marine army.

And I am one of those Marine players, BA to be exact, and I don't mind paying the extra points, because they were stupid useful in 3rd/4th, even at 25 pts. Now they're only less so, but you pay through the nose for it and I still use them.

Come on, you know that good old GW will knee jerk them into the next edition. The pendulum doth swing too far.... as usual

Cruentus wrote:Red Marines don't even have BP/CCW and they're RED! If they want BP/CCW they have to buy assault maines.

I can't see them handing that out to every chapter. Then the Black marines would complain.

Red Marines have Assault Marines as Troops.

Black Marines don't buy a "FREE" Crazy Marine with each squad, nor "FREE" turbofans with each squaddie. I'm sure the Black Marines are just fine.

I just want to say that hearing 'red marines' and 'black marines' used in a serious discussion brings a warm feeling to my heart.

Will there be a model for the new razorbacks? I assume if they are just ressurected from a previous edition as was stated earlier, that they used to have models, and those will be put back into production? That would be handy. Tactical squad, with flamer and heavy bolter, in a razorback with twin assault cannons, or a Tactical squad with melta and multimelta, in a razor with multi melta? I like both of those builds, if you kept the center hatch open on the rhinos you could really customize for whatever force you were fighting. Nice.

Or, my new favorite- 6 sternguard veterans with 2 heavy flamers, 4 combo flamers, in a razorback with a twin linked heavy flamer. With the new all-at-once template rules, that isn't even an anti-horde weapon, it is an anti-anything below T6 weapon. Against hordes, obviously, it is disgusting. And then you can always switch over to hellfire mags whenever the Carnifex wanders over. Hawt.