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In my opinion, Space Marines need a buff to compete with CSM's and Orks. This sounds like it could be it.

I don't think BT are weak at all.

They can still spam assault cannons and get min maxed lasplas. The only thing they really miss out on Devasator squads.

12 pt marines is insane though. Stormtroopers/Sisters are 10.

Tau Fire Warriors are 10!

Pass me a shovel of sodium chloride will ya!

Remember that GW for the most part balances the point values of models and upgrades internally, not externally.

Sisters are 11 btw.

Oh hay guys you'll never guess what happened to me!

Yesterday I was sitting around and a Mail Order Troll called me and told me that regular Space Marines would be free (points-wise) and that you would only have to pay points for heavy weapons! Of course to make up for this Great Deal! Tactical Squad boxed sets are being adjusted to $50 a box.

I'm not sure but his voice sounded kind of like Andy Chambers, so I assumed he had checked his facts.

bigchris1313 wrote:This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all.

Not a chance. Someone will always buy marine kits.

JOHIRA wrote:

bigchris1313 wrote:This stuff doesn't sound that great. I mean, sure, a free missile launcher sounds nice, but if the pts go up on the basic marine by even one, I don't know if they'll sell Marine kits at all.

Not a chance. Someone will always buy marine kits.

HURR! Hey kidz?! Likes yerself soem spase marienz? Tehy are teh awesomest! U can be like Master Chief and Solid Snake! Tehy alwayz get the bestest rules!!!1!!2!!three!!

Seriously, if y'all believe this, you've been

I heard that in the new Codex: Space Marines, they are going to include teh Space Emperor as a special character, but get this, you don't have to get your opponent's permission to use it, 'cause teh Space Emperor is in charge of the game!

Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win after deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)

Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!

Also, Space Marine armies with teh Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.


Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.

Hordini wrote:Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.

Only a little bit, 40,000 points is still being mighty generous though.

Hordini wrote:I heard that in the new Codex: Space Marines, they are going to include teh Space Emperor as a special character, but get this, you don't have to get your opponent's permission to use it, 'cause teh Space Emperor is in charge of the game!

Basically the rules are:
Against aliens and Chaos the marines automatically win after deployment, unless Horus is included in the Chaos army (see the upcoming Chaos Legion-specific codices, coming in the future!)

Against other Imperial armies (Marines, IG, Witch Hunters, etc.) the Emperor's presence makes them realize it's silly to fight each other and both sides hug and win!

Also, Space Marine armies with teh Emperor get all their heavy weapons for free, because the Space Emperor has so many Space Bucks, that all the heavy weapons are on him! Drinks after the game are on you, however.


Personally I think he'll probably be way over-costed.

I heard they won't even need to field teh Emporor (though he'd be fun in apocalypse!), because of a new special rule:

Special Rule: HURR!!
After deployment, but before the game begins, the Space Marine player rolls a d6 on the following chart:
1-3 Reroll
4 Marine player wins
5 Marine player wins and gets to keep opponent's army
6 Marine player wins, gets to keep opponent's army, and opponent has to give marine player $5

If both players are fielding Space Marine armies, then they roll on this chart:
1 reroll
2-6 Space Marines HURR!! Both players win maximum victory points and are given $10 by the GW store to go out for chocolate chip pancakes and/or real fruit smoothies.

Oddly enough, I have to agree with JohnHwang's first post. (Was that thunder?) Most of the new "WHEE COOL!" new stuff is in the elites section. So you will have 3 slots still for terminators, vets of various flavors and dreads, assuming retinues for HQs are out, and all of them can only contest. That isn't so horrible when you get right down to it.
The HQs = traits thing is interesting at least. It might become a bit overpowered, since I am certain there is at least one combination that didn't get play tested enough for the "Holy crap, they can do THAT?!" to come out, but it probably makes for less mix and match horror than traits could produce. Plus it seems likely that they will be expensive to the point that min/maxing will be a bit more difficult. It costs nothing to get extra special weapons currently, for example, but paying say 200 points to get that is a bit steep. Maybe not though, depending on how buff the special HQs prove to be.

Honestly though, I think the free "lesser" special/heavy weapons are an interesting option. Consider how often one really sees flamers, heavy bolters or missile launchers in tactical squads in tournaments. Yea, you see them in fun armies around the shop, but they are not deemed "competitive", generally because the total cost of ownership is considered too high compared to their effectiveness. This has been done to death in the tactics forum, but suffice to say it is like taking grenade launchers on IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.

I do very much wish they had come up with this back before they did the Chaos or DA/BA codexes though. It's a good idea whose time had come, but it came some two years ago.


However, I would like to add my vote to the "real fruit smoothies" column. I was looking to buy a car the past few weeks, and was routinely offered free coffee and soda; smoothies would make GW toys feel more like the luxury item they are

Wehrkind wrote:Honestly though, I think the free "lesser" special/heavy weapons are an interesting option. Consider how often one really sees flamers, heavy bolters or missile launchers in tactical squads in tournaments. Yea, you see them in fun armies around the shop, but they are not deemed "competitive", generally because the total cost of ownership is considered too high compared to their effectiveness. This has been done to death in the tactics forum, but suffice to say it is like taking grenade launchers on IG: yes, they are better than a lasgun, but the points cost is not so much lower than a plasma gun to make it worth taking.
However, if they are free, it means people will use them, perhaps as an afterthought. When mixed with combat squads and a required 10 men to pull it off, the total cost of ownership probably becomes just about equal to previously, but now you are only trading the utility of a bolter for that of a flamer, say.

Frankly I was looking forward to tactical squads going the way of C:BA (and probably CA though I can't say for sure):

4 marines + veteran = X points
Add 5 marines = +Y points
5 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15)
10 man squad = 1 flamer (5), melta (10), plasma (15) & 1 heavy bolter (10), missile launcher (10), multi-melta (10), plasma cannon (15), lascannon (20)

Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop. For IG I could see it though, considering they ARE their specilized weapons.

- Salvage

I agree, but if you are forced to take 10 men to get anything special at all (which is how I read the rumor) making some of the "sub par" options free makes a lot of sense.
Consider how you pointed out that Sisters are great vs. daemons because they pretty much HAVE to take flamers since plasma/lascannons are not an option. Nearly every army that can take plasma does, shunning the other specials in the process, because for the price it is staggeringly more effective 90% of the time. Mauleed pattern Marines is pretty much the standard of "UBAR" for just that reason.

Now, ignore your general list making tendancies. You, and to a lesser extent I, are not the sort of list builder these changes are designed for. Consider instead Studder. When was the last time you saw a plague marine with a flamer? You and I generally build lists in terms of "I like this and the way it plays out in the movie in my head. Nekkid S&M chicks with giant chainsaws ROCK." Most serious players think in terms of "The benefit/cost of getting a flamer in a squad that requires 10 men is less than that of plasma, because at best you are killing X MEQ/point for one vs. the other."

Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...

Uh, what?!

Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.

And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.

I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.

- Salvage

Man, if they want us to use Missile Launchers and Flamers that ought to give us better rules for them, not make them cheaper. The new blast rules certainly aren't making any friends for MLs no matter how cheap you make them. Heck, maybe have it so if you take them you get points back rather than spend points towards them.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...

Statements like that make make baby Jeebus cry. You'll notice the 7 below.

Poor Dark Angels, they really did get lost on their way to the special 40k olympics.

You can even replicate Ravenwing with the new SM dex.

At least Blood Angels still get better Chaplains, Death Company, and Troop Assault Squads.

Also, any thoughts on a Drop Pod + Scouts army? If the Scouts work like that, then things could be pretty entertaining, IMO.

Man, if they want us to use Missile Launchers and Flamers that ought to give us better rules for them, not make them cheaper. The new blast rules certainly aren't making any friends for MLs no matter how cheap you make them. Heck, maybe have it so if you take them you get points back rather than spend points towards them.

The benefit of horde armies (volume of fire > high quality shots and scoring system) makes blast weapons better...so you have better rules. How much do you pay for Heavy bolters nowadays anyway? 5 pts in a squad? So what's the big deal with free ones?

What i fear is the spammability of basic tactical squads now, just fill your org chart with cheap HB squads and the rest with raiders, or is this unjustified?

The rest sounds pretty much awesome, I mean the space marine units (especially elites) are now a consideration when you build your list. I think this will be as good as the Eldar codex which had many units (almost all imo) which were playable.

Greets
Schepp himself

Dreads are crazy now weapons include - Assault Cannon, Multi Melta, twin Heavy Bolters, twin Heavy Flamers, twin las cannon, twin autocannon, plasma cannon, DCCW, Missile Launcher, and maybe more I have forgotten. Oh, and AT LEAST the twin autocannon can be purchased for BOTH arms.

I hope at least this bit is true. Mortis dreads look badass.

New eldar codex featured the following broken units:

Eldrad, Avatar, Harlequins, Holo Falcons (plus dirt cheap Guardian jetbikes)

New Tyranid codex featured the following broken units:

Carnifexen as elite, bolter proof Genestealers, blah blah blah

New Ork codex featured the following broken units:

All special characters, Lootas, SAG, blah blah blah

G

Boss_Salvage wrote:Frankly I was looking forward to tactical squads going the way of C:BA (and probably CA though I can't say for sure):

[SNIP C: BA-like costing]

Nice, structured codex astartes feel to it, and recognizes the differences in the special and heavy weapons as reflected in the points. Free weapons is a braindead option unless marines cost 20 points a pop.

While I was also looking forward to something similar, the issue with SM is that you have a fairly high sunk cost of 165+ pts for the Veteran + 9 other suits of PA. The incremental cost of 5 or 10 points isn't just isn't high enough to make it worth taking Flamers over Plasma, given the slot being what it is. Same with the incremental cost of Lascannon over Missile Launcher. But when they become "FREE" (i.e. valued less than 5 pts), then the net incremental cost of taking Las or Plas increases to 15+ pts. A 35-pt net cost increase for Las/Plas is significant enough to actually matter in army building, which one presumes to have been the point of the change.

Wehrkind wrote:You and I generally build lists in terms of "I like this and the way it plays out in the movie in my head. Nekkid S&M chicks with giant chainsaws ROCK." Most serious players think in terms of "The benefit/cost of getting a flamer in a squad that requires 10 men is less than that of plasma, because at best you are killing X MEQ/point for one vs. the other."

Priceless!

Boss_Salvage wrote:Regarding Studder's plague marines, he actually had a GW creature at Games Day walk up to his army, look at the 7-man squads and ask why he runs 7 in each squad. He said it was fluffy and that's that, and the guy laughed and said GW totally f-ed up with that sacred number stuff and he was glad it was gone ...

Uh, what?!

I am imagining the next frame of that scene was Studder grabbing the GW monkey by the neck, drawing his .45 and screaming something along the lines of "YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!" or alternately "TAKE IT BACK! I HATE YOU! YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD!"

Anyway, I think making any free special or heavy weapons is just not how 40k works, though I know other games do this with SAWs and whatever for squads (often bought at a set size). Flamers aren't taken in foot infantry often because of the limits of 6" movement vs 12" assault, but there-in we see the benefits of transports to, well, transport shorter range weapons in for the kill. And add in the benefits 5th gives to hordes and the need for anti-horde weapons goes up. 5 points for a flamer? A steal I say, but it's just a more situational weapon than the other options.

And back to the start of your post, it seemed to me that 5 guys = free flamer or pay to upgrade it. 10 guys = free flamer, free heavy (from the list), pay to upgrade them.

I'll also inject here the abilities of combat squads to make special and heavy weapons better at what they do (in the case of the more specialized weapons - flamers for closer support, meltas to hunt tank, lascannons to kill tanks). THAT is the benefit to marines for taking 10 dudes: access to a heavy weapon and the ability to split a squad up to make the best use of what it has been armed with. Chaos? 10 guys gets us a heavy weapon. End.

- Salvage

I see what you mean by this, and I partially agree. I think the problem is that to make flamers etc. valuable you either have to make the situations where their special rules really shine much more common, or make plasma and the like much more expensive.
Consider for instance how often you see the flamers in my foot girl squads fire. Once a game if they are lucky (or fighting daemons) or never if they are not. Those things cost half the price of a girl with a bolter, and I lose the bolter to get it. Depending on how the squad plays, if I sat back and fired, I might get just as many hits and wounds over the course of a game than if I ran forward, sacrificed 24" shooting, then rapid fired and flamed once, presumably before getting charged for my trouble. Most of the time it seems I get charged first.
Now, if 40k had "stand and shoot" as a response to being charged, then flamers would be hot poop. Alternately, if there were alternating phase sequences instead of IGOUGO, they would be better. As it stands, you are lucky to get the 5 points of benefit from them. (Seraphim, however, rock socks with flamers.)

As to your other point, about "free" upgrades not being 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things.

Now, about meltas/missiles, that I don't know.

I suppose the difference between 5 men/free special and 10 men/free special/heavy is pretty academic thanks to combat squads. Still, I think the "free upgrade" is only out of place due to the context of other codexes, which have very little of that, not so much in and of itself. Especially since the weapons chosen are those that are historically under utilized despite being practically free as is.

I guess Jervis is not the man anymore.

G

You just misquoted yourself GBF :-P

Wehrkind wrote:As to your other point, about "free" upgrades not being 40k, please note that all imperial sgt.s can trade their base weapon (bolter or lasgun) for a pistol version and ccw for no extra cost. The assumption seems to be that both are equally valuable, just for different things. I would put forth that a flamer is just as good as a bolter, just for different things.

I don't think the bolter vs bolt pistol + ccw is quite the same thing at all, as that has such a tiny tiny effect on how the rest of the squad performs on the battlefield. However the bit I emphasized is probably the best support for free flamers, especially when reversed: a bolter is just as good as a flamer, just for different things. For the record, I'm not against the free flamers, I think that's a fine and groovy thing and will almost always be upgraded anyway. What I'm against are free heavy weapons.

And back on the pistol + ccw, all my chaos marines have all three weapons so I'm clearly going to toss that one aside

@ JohnHwang -- Point taken, and agreed with. And to whomever suggested the real problem is the rules behind the weapons needing to change more than the points, I think you have it.

- Salvage

Well, at least so far as heavy bolters go, they do have two troublesome downsides: they can't move and shoot, and when shooting at range the rest of the squad with bolters sit on their hands. Well, that and they are not a lascannon.

So you won't see troops in rhinos taking a free heavy bolter. The 4 ablative marines sitting in the combat squad with the bolter that is plinking at 36" from cover are just extra wounds. Does this radically change the use of the squad? You just get a little more kill at range if you stand and shoot. Heavy bolters, at least it seems to me, are not terribly exciting until you can take multiples in a squad, such that all those extra bodies clutching bolters do not go to waste. Well, the bolters go to waste... the bodies get filled with a bullet just fine either way.

So at least for HBs, I think free is ok too.

Still on the fence with Meltas and Missiles, but chances are I will talk myself out of that too. Meltas are only 12" range after all... and sacrifice all those bolter rounds when they shoot at a tank... :-P

My template for an army features four lascannons in full tactical squads along with plasma guns. Two of these four tactical squads have a power fist and rhino. I will take one small Devastator squad with four heavy bolters and another squad with four missile launchers. Finally one or two thunderfire cannons and that takes care of my primary shooting. One to two veteran squads with bolters in rhinos for counter assault and contesting objectives. One hero such as master of the forge with conversion beam to round it all out.

G